[SweetLou]

Wow, to thik that A-Hole got away with writing decent people tickets for not breaking any laws, and then demanding a apoligy. And nothing happens. What a crock.

[Mojoe]

Because the points you make are all over the place....First you make points that when officers are doing their job they are harassing the public by what you refer to as a speed traps. Then you spew off that the police should be out there all the time giving tickets to slow everyone down rather then parking their "fat asses" at Dunkin Donuts..... You need to understand that there are more areas to patrol then there are patrol officers to cover them..... Basically Laws are written on an honor system and everyone is suppose to honor the law and abide by it.... The police are there to be a reminder for those that are not so honorable......I can only speak about the State of Maine but here the Quota myth is just that an urban legend.... It is a pile of crap.... An Officer can be as lazy as his supervisor lets him be or as active as he wants to be..... Police Officers Do not get any money from the tickets they write, they just get crap from those that are issued them....You obviously have your oppions and are entitled to them, but I am as well and what you have written has just rubbed me the wrong way....

my points may seem all over the place cuz for you the speedtrap is just a myth...an urban legend. But here it is real. You say that police do not make money off any tickets they write and only get crap from those that issue them.....this is true, but there is a 3rd aspect that you have overlooked because the speedtrap does not "exist" in Maine. For those places it does exist, there are town councils and legislation that will indeed approach the police force with the policy of "get out there and write some tickets to generate some income". And this will seperate the good cops from the bad cops. A good cop will meet his quota all through the month and be able to use his judgement on who to give a break to and who not to. A lazy cop will wait until deadline and set up a speedtrap and give breaks to no one cuz he can't afford to. I know a few cops and have been filled in on some of the policies used by them. I also know it is not entirely their fault. Much of it comes from the municipal government. Many times it is them who enforce the ticket writing....cuz the plain fact is that tickets generate income.

"But...aren't speed traps designed to protect the public?"

Well...actually no. Speed traps are about what the government is always about: money and politics. It's a 15 Billion Dollar a year cash cow for government and insurance special interests. Speed traps exist to (a) raise revenue for the government, (b) protect hundeds of millions of dollars in Federal highway construction grants, (c) protect and justify the jobs of government employees, (d) provide Billions of dollars in profits from increased premiums and claim denials for the insurance industry. Remember Woodward and Bernstein...if you want to know what the politicians are up to...follow the money.

How can you say the speedtrap is a myth when there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of sites on the net discussing it?

Basically Laws are written on an honor system and everyone is suppose to honor the law and abide by it.... The police are there to be a reminder for those that are not so honorable

BS. The donation cup beside the coffee maker in the office is there to work on the honor system. Laws are written to enforce. That is why laws are so diverse from one state/province to another. In Canada you can have a joint in your possesion....but not a pound. That is about as close to an "honor system" as you can have when it comes to the law. have that same joint in your possession someplace down south in the heart of the bible belt where just masterbating is a sin and a crime, and you could do a few years in the pen. So if this is an honor system.....who's system is it? Who's is deciding what is honorable and what isn't? The politicians are....not the public. If the laws are honor system, then why the diversity? How can it be honorable for a person to be able to drive xx amount of mph in one state, but only x amount in another. The simple reason is the state with xx mph doesn't need to squeeze the money from motorists as the state with x mph does. Maine must fall into the xx mph category if it doesn't use speedtraps.

[ghost]

my points may seem all over the place cuz for you the speedtrap is just a myth...an urban legend. But here it is real.

I did not state the "speedtrap" was a myth or urban legend, I stated that the Quota on tickets by police officers is....

A good cop will meet his quota all through the month and be able to use his judgement on who to give a break to and who not to. A lazy cop will wait until deadline and set up a speedtrap and give breaks to no one cuz he can't afford to.

So is your definition of a speed trap a place where officers stop cars speeding and give them tickets without issuing any warnings no matter what speed they are traveling over the posted limit? Or is it if officers are choosing to only stop vehicles and ticket them for grossly operating over the posted speed limit such as 12MPH and over and not bothering to stop those going slower then that to give warnings?

[Mojoe]

I did not state the "speedtrap" was a myth or urban legend, I stated that the Quota on tickets by police officers is....

so what you are saying is that the officers do not have a quota to fill? sorry...but I have to strongly disagree with that because I have obtained that info straight from the horses mouth. The officers here do have to write x amount of tickets per month. It is not based on how much much money they pull in, but on showing that they are at least doing there job. And I know for a fact that the council will include the income from tickets to meet the annual budget. If they are over budget, sending out officers to write more tickets is one of the ways they make up the difference. It may not be like that in Maine, but it is like that here....and I know this to be fact.

[Mojoe]

your not pissed are you? this is just a debate, right? I am just stating facts as I know them or come across them...and my opinion that often enough speedtraps are just about money. I am not arguing or putting down police officers. I hope I made it clear that I do not hold them responsible....well not 100% anyway. There are the select few who are bored with the job and wait until the last minute to bust any and all they can to shut-up the people at the top. Much of the time they have no choice but to do what they are told to do.

[The CyberPoet]

Because the points you make are all over the place....First you make points that when officers are doing their job they are harassing the public by what you refer to as a speed traps. Then you spew off that the police should be out there all the time giving tickets to slow everyone down rather then parking their "fat asses" at Dunkin Donuts..... You need to understand that there are more areas to patrol then there are patrol officers to cover them..... Basically Laws are written on an honor system and everyone is suppose to honor the law and abide by it.... The police are there to be a reminder for those that are not so honorable......I can only speak about the State of Maine but here the Quota myth is just that an urban legend.... It is a pile of crap.... An Officer can be as lazy as his supervisor lets him be or as active as he wants to be..... Police Officers Do not get any money from the tickets they write, they just get crap from those that are issued them....You obviously have your oppions and are entitled to them, but I am as well and what you have written has just rubbed me the wrong way....

(A) Whether you call them community standards or ticket quota's, performance expectations, etc., there are a certain expected level of citations to be written in almost all departments in the USA. An officer in Pinellas county (FL) was fired about 18 months ago because he hadn't written any non-DUI traffic tickets in the past two years; his arguement was that the verbal warning he gave motorists would be as effective and no cause financial distress on anyone. Thus, while it can be said police officers don't personally receive ticket money, their jobs are on the line when it comes to writing tickets (and generating revenue)

(B) Although the money doesn't go to the officer, in most jurisdictions, a large portion of that money goes back into the police coffers in the end. Thus, the organization as a whole benefits from the ticket writing, and such revenue helps offset increases in property taxes (which helps keep politicians re-elected; thus it is supported by the powers that be).

(C) The concept that the combination of absolute compliance with arbitrary speed limits, and traffic tickets save lives is basically flawed. The real problem is a multi-fold one of lack of sufficient training. The German roadway system (I am a German-licensed Driving Instructor) operates without speed limits in many places and with very high speed limits in many places, yet on a per-mile and a per-driver basis, the Germans suffer fewer crashes, fewer injuries and fewer fatalities. Why is that? Because the Americans spend money on generating money (more traffic units, more detection systems) while the Germans require their drivers to go through far better training to learn how to judge safe speeds -- and then leave that decision up to the driver when feasible. The fact of the matter is that there is such a thing as too slow for safety; a look at the traffic fatalities, injuries and crash statistics for Lincolnshire (UK) for the last three years will show that dropping the limits in half for many of the thoroughfares almost doubled the traffic fatalities. Why? Because a bored driver is one who doesn't pay attention, who gets frustrated with the delays, who is more likely to act wrecklessly to pass once out of a limited speed zone. People usually have a fair conception of what safe speed is for their particular circumstance -- and darwinism will gladly take care of the rest.

I find your arguments weak and without much merit... but I understand that some people have inate need to comply with other's imposed rules no matter what the cost, thinking somehow that the lowest common denominator is the best for the masses.

Hmmmm...
=-= The CyberPoet

[ghost]

(C) The concept that the combination of absolute compliance with arbitrary speed limits, and traffic tickets save lives is basically flawed. The real problem is a multi-fold one of lack of sufficient training. The German roadway system (I am a German-licensed Driving Instructor) operates without speed limits in many places and with very high speed limits in many places, yet on a per-mile and a per-driver basis, the Germans suffer fewer crashes, fewer injuries and fewer fatalities. Why is that? Because the Americans spend money on generating money (more traffic units, more detection systems) while the Germans require their drivers to go through far better training to learn how to judge safe speeds -- and then leave that decision up to the driver when feasible. The fact of the matter is that there is such a thing as too slow for safety; a look at the traffic fatalities, injuries and crash statistics for Lincolnshire (UK) for the last three years will show that dropping the limits in half for many of the thoroughfares almost doubled the traffic fatalities. Why? Because a bored driver is one who doesn't pay attention, who gets frustrated with the delays, who is more likely to act wrecklessly to pass once out of a limited speed zone. People usually have a fair conception of what safe speed is for their particular circumstance -- and darwinism will gladly take care of the rest.

What is the population of Germany compared to the United States? What is the statistics of how many vehicles are registered and operate in Germany as compared to the United States?

[ghost]

your not pissed are you? this is just a debate, right? .

No I am not pissed..... Yes it is a debate.....

[The CyberPoet]

What is the population of Germany compared to the United States? What is the statistics of how many vehicles are registered and operate in Germany as compared to the United States?

Population density is higher than it is in 90% of the USA. Registrations average 1.2 to 1.4 vehicles per licensed driver if you include all motorized road vehicles. But it's irrelevant -- the statistics were already evened up -- as I noted in the "per mile" and "per driver" comments.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[Mojoe]

I find your arguments weak and without much merit... but I understand that some people have inate need to comply with other's imposed rules no matter what the cost, thinking somehow that the lowest common denominator is the best for the masses.

I did not want to express it that way because I did not want to make a direct and personal comment towards Ghost, but it did make me wonder if he was a cop himself. My impression was that he himself might be an officer of law and justifying their actions.

[Mojoe]

I found this interesting:

The State of Connecticut has one of the lowest rates of fatalities per mile driven in the nation. It also has one of the highest rates of non-compliance with the 55 MPH speed limit

this site has some interesting info behing the concept of the "speedtrap"

http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/3417/trap.html

[SweetLou]

What is the population of Germany compared to the United States? What is the statistics of how many vehicles are registered and operate in Germany as compared to the United States?

Population of Germany is ruffly 2,050,672. Vehicles registered last year were just a hair under 2 million.

With a per capita based on the euro system, you can figure that the Germans spend aproximately 4 dollars (US) more per gallon (3.2 Liters) of beer than is here in the states do. Thus, causing the influx of angry drunken men to driver at high speeds to obtain more brew from a pub that is a closer distance to there dwelling, compared to the average US citizen that will drive 30 minutes out of the way to aquire some suds.

This Said, I do not know the actual Populaton of Germany compared to the states, and I have no idea what the statisitcs are for vehicles registered and operated in Germany compared to the states.

I do know however that they got some fine women over there, and there beer is a lot more potent too.

[The CyberPoet]

I find your arguments weak and without much merit... but I understand that some people have inate need to comply with other's imposed rules no matter what the cost, thinking somehow that the lowest common denominator is the best for the masses.

I did not want to express it that way because I did not want to make a direct and personal comment towards Ghost, but it did make me wonder if he was a cop himself. My impression was that he himself might be an officer of law and justifying their actions.

Please go back and reread that sentence. I did not say that he has a particular need to comply, just that some do (I was actually thinking of a police officer who worked at my high school and a long running debate we had over my obligation to intentional disobedience in the case of unfair, unrightful laws as part of the legal process to have them removed or overturned).

Ghost, I hope you did not take my comments as any direct insult of you; it was not intended as such, but as a comment on merits the arguments presented.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[Mojoe]

I do know however that they got some fine women over there, and there beer is a lot more potent too.

Pretty much any civilized nation with a brewery has more potent beer than America. And we all know that most of the hot female celebrities in the US are either from Canada, South America or Europe. They only call themselves "American" for the money cuz you folks buy into that.

(just kidding...don't get bent out of shape).

[The CyberPoet]

Population of Germany is ruffly 2,050,672. Vehicles registered last year were just a hair under 2 million.

I don't know where you got your stats, but they are way off. The greater city of Berlin has a population above 2 million. Ditto Munchen (Munich in English).

From the CIA World Fact Book:

Population as of July 2005 is estimated at 82.4 million.
230,735 KM of highways (143,372 miles of highways), 100% of which are paved highways.

From other sources:
There are over 52 million registered private automobiles.
The average driver covers 14k KM (8,700 miles) per year, and spends about an hour driving each day.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet