[The CyberPoet]

Incidentally, the fumoto website doesn't even mention using this on bikes. Not that that is necessarily an issue, but I figured it would be easy for them to say something about it.

Desperation to ride may be affecting things too.

That's because they don't have the experience cross-referencing the bolt size on bikes, so they don't have a list. I went through a couple 14mm Fumoto's before I figured out that it was M14-1.25 (and not M14-1.5).

The implication being the helicoil doesn't hold up too well to the drain bolt being removed and re-installed repeatedly?

Correct. Helicoils are spring coils with razor bits on the back-side (to bite the metal) and a triangular taper on the front to hold the screw. In theory, they hold forever. In reality, with oil passing through, differences in metal expansion rates for the pan & bolt, etc., they don't tend to survive indefinitely in aluminum oil pans -- they tend to back out over time with repeated bolt removal. On something like a head bolt, it's a non-issue, because the bolt isn't drenched in oil and isn't removed regularly; the same can't be said about the oil drain bolt.

One thing I figured out at the rally: with the fumoto, you can drain your oil hot without burning yourself like you would with a standard plug, as well as being able to doing a single liter oil swap (drain a liter, add a liter). I swapped a single liter every 1k miles, just to make sure at least some of the oil was fresh enough for the trip after being abused at the gap

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[nurider]

look at it this way, install the helicoil as a temp fix... when you go to do next oil change, change pan and all
The helicoil will not fail if you never take the drain bolt out after it is installed. (your mileage may vary..)

The implication being the helicoil doesn't hold up too well to the drain bolt being removed and re-installed repeatedly?

[paperairplane]

look at it this way, install the helicoil as a temp fix... when you go to do next oil change, change pan and all
The helicoil will not fail if you never take the drain bolt out after it is installed. (your mileage may vary..)

[nurider]

Any flaws?

No if you desperately want to ride this weekend.
Otherwise, order the replacement oil pan, gasket and a fumoto valve

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

I haven't forgotten about what you said regarding the helicoils. The dealer says he puts those on "all the time" and hasn't had any problems with them.

I figured I'd try it. If it doesn't work, I can always order a new pan and the fumoto valve ($22.95+$12.00 to get it here tomorrow!).

Incidentally, the fumoto website doesn't even mention using this on bikes. Not that that is necessarily an issue, but I figured it would be easy for them to say something about it.

Desperation to ride may be affecting things too.

[The CyberPoet]

Any flaws?

No if you desperately want to ride this weekend.
Otherwise, order the replacement oil pan, gasket and a fumoto valve

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[nurider]

Alright, after many phone calls, and digging on the net, and thinking abuot options and costs, here's the plan:

1. drop exhaust, take oil pan off
2. take it to dealer (dealer says he'll only charge for his time spent, not just flat for an hour, $59/hour) and
a. have the next larger size (16mm) drilled/tapped
OR
b. install helicoil kit (14mm - 1.25), which costs $28.88 or $29.99, depending on which store I deal with.

3. new oil pan gasket ($9.84), ADD a crush gasket ($0.85) for drain plug (last owner ... grrrrr), and new drain plug ($1.15)
Worth the dealer costs, as online would require shipping costs.

4. Fill 4 quarts of oil

5. RIDE

Any flaws?

[HS2020]

As for welding the pan. It is only about 60% aluminum and the rest is pot metal. I know b/c my cousin who owns a machine shop welded mine up that I cracked and they said it was a pain. They also welded in the drainpulg to help make sure there was no leaks around there and then tapped the drainplug. They then put JB weld all around the welds for added protection. I will not use this oil pan unless I run into a dire need next time.

[nurider]

1. Retapping sounds like a good option. Due diligence would have me ask if there's sufficient metal around the original hole/tap. Can anyone confirm?
Will need stuff to retap. Home Depot to the rescue?

If you get a whole set, go HarborFreight (or HarborFreight.com). If you are just getting a single tap, I'd suggest trying Ace Hardware (Home Depot/Lowes didn't have 14mm taps when I checked my local stores).

Single tap only, I suspect.

As for welding on more aluminum - I wouldn't know how. And since I'd like to take care of this myself, not viable.
Are fumoto valves readily available?

Yes. Past experience tells me fulfillment is usually about 4 days via 1st class mail. See www.fumotovalve.com

Stock size is F111 (M14-1.25). If you tap over to the next Fumoto valve size up, it would be a F108 (16mm 1.5 turns per). Do not get an "N" model; you don't want the extra clearance issues with the nipple.

Thanks for the heads up.

I think BISQ mentioned a drill/tap set would run about as much as a new pan.

A full metric tap/die set from HarborFreight would run about what you could expect to pay for an used pan with freight ($40).

If the cost diff between a new and a used pan is only about $20, I'll go new.

2. I'll check with the stealership if they carry self tapping plugs.

3. Would like to explore this (either Keensert or heli-coil). Any issue with long term integrity of such a fix?
Lack of other ideas points me to Home Depot.
Possible to install fumoto valve with this kind of fix?

Helicoils have a habit of coming out with the bolt if the bolt is removed again in the future. This would be a non-issue with a fumoto valve, since the valve wouldn't come out again. KeenSerts don't have that issue, but require more involvement to install and are harder to source (your local auto parts shop may have helicoils; unlikely to carry KeenSerts).

Easy enough to check; will call around.

4. Replacing the pan: used or new. Sounds good. Don't know if I want to get into cleaning/etc. a real old one ..... thanks, though.
Uhhh .... since I could, potentially, have ruined the pan drain myself (I prefer to think it was the previous owner), I don't want to ruin the next pan too. Should probably stay away from too many torque requirements. That's why the fumoto sounds pretty good.
For the record, I never stripped the drain plugs on any of my cars ......

Unless you drive a VAG (VW or Audi), odds are you've never run into a situation where the pan is aluminum and the bolt is a significantly harder composite-steel blend. Audi owners do it all the time, and our Audis' are the reason I'm familiar with the Fumoto valve.?

As a matter of fact, I do have an Audi ...... still under warranty, so oil changes are done by the dealer 8) . By the sound of things, probably a good thing to know this possible issue with a simple oil change.

Meanwhile, if the pan for your bike is $64 new, personally I'd get a new one.... for the pre-98 price, I'd buy new.

Will check $$

You need a centerstand or a bike stand. If the bike has a centerstand, that is all you need in terms of support. If it doesn't have a centerstand, seriously consider tracking one down, since it's infinitely useful. I recall someone around here even had a mod to let you install/uninstall one in a matter of 30 to 60 seconds if you don't like riding with one but want one for working on the bike...

No surprise, but will mean another delay due to trying to get one at a reasonable cost.

Hopes of riding this weekend fade into the sunset .................

Unless the local shop/guy can help me out.

Thanks, again.

[The CyberPoet]

1. Retapping sounds like a good option. Due diligence would have me ask if there's sufficient metal around the original hole/tap. Can anyone confirm?
Will need stuff to retap. Home Depot to the rescue?

If you get a whole set, go HarborFreight (or HarborFreight.com). If you are just getting a single tap, I'd suggest trying Ace Hardware (Home Depot/Lowes didn't have 14mm taps when I checked my local stores).

As for welding on more aluminum - I wouldn't know how. And since I'd like to take care of this myself, not viable.
Are fumoto valves readily available?

Yes. Past experience tells me fulfillment is usually about 4 days via 1st class mail. See www.fumotovalve.com

Stock size is F111 (M14-1.25). If you tap over to the next Fumoto valve size up, it would be a F108 (16mm 1.5 turns per). Do not get an "N" model; you don't want the extra clearance issues with the nipple.

I think BISQ mentioned a drill/tap set would run about as much as a new pan.

A full metric tap/die set from HarborFreight would run about what you could expect to pay for an used pan with freight ($40).

2. I'll check with the stealership if they carry self tapping plugs.

3. Would like to explore this (either Keensert or heli-coil). Any issue with long term integrity of such a fix?
Lack of other ideas points me to Home Depot.
Possible to install fumoto valve with this kind of fix?

Helicoils have a habit of coming out with the bolt if the bolt is removed again in the future. This would be a non-issue with a fumoto valve, since the valve wouldn't come out again. KeenSerts don't have that issue, but require more involvement to install and are harder to source (your local auto parts shop may have helicoils; unlikely to carry KeenSerts).

4. Replacing the pan: used or new. Sounds good. Don't know if I want to get into cleaning/etc. a real old one ..... thanks, though.
Uhhh .... since I could, potentially, have ruined the pan drain myself (I prefer to think it was the previous owner), I don't want to ruin the next pan too. Should probably stay away from too many torque requirements. That's why the fumoto sounds pretty good.
For the record, I never stripped the drain plugs on any of my cars ......

Unless you drive a VAG (VW or Audi), odds are you've never run into a situation where the pan is aluminum and the bolt is a significantly harder composite-steel blend. Audi owners do it all the time, and our Audis' are the reason I'm familiar with the Fumoto valve.

Meanwhile, if the pan for your bike is $64 new, personally I'd get a new one. The post-98 pans are $117 - $135 new, depending on source, so used ones are a far cheaper route to go... So far I've bought four oil pans for the post-98 Kats off ebay and one was buggered all up (cracked) when it arrived; for the pre-98 price, I'd buy new.

Oh, and before anyone asks the why on four pans:
First one was for a stripped pan on my 1st Kat (dealership's fault; they fixed it with a larger bolt, but the replacement bolt had no magnet & little material around it left, so I swapped pans to go back to the OEM drain plug);
Second one was me stripping out a drain bolt (2nd Kat) on my own;
Third one was a test-bed platform for the first oil temp gauge & sender install.
Fourth one was for the next oil temp sender install (different brand/type), but it was cracked on arrival and I found the sender hole on third one could be retapped for the new sender.

Now some general stuff: will I need bike stands or any other lifts, etc.? I'd prefer to stick to a fix which doesn't require me to build a state of the art workshop to get past this problem. I hope you guys know what I mean.

You need a centerstand or a bike stand. If the bike has a centerstand, that is all you need in terms of support. If it doesn't have a centerstand, seriously consider tracking one down, since it's infinitely useful. I recall someone around here even had a mod to let you install/uninstall one in a matter of 30 to 60 seconds if you don't like riding with one but want one for working on the bike...

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[nurider]

First, my sincere thanks to ALL who replied. KR rules!

(A) Torque wrenches, especially the clicker types, do very poorly with the lower end of the setting range and are supposed to be recalibrated every year. This is why I use a visible-beam style torque wrench for most of what's on the Kat.

(B) You have several options (many of them mentioned already):
(1) Retap the pan for a larger size drain (stock bolt is 14mm x 1.25 turns for the 98+ and I think the pre-98's use the same)... or a variation on the same theme -- weld in more aluminum and retap to the original size. Good time for a fumoto valve at this time...
(2) Get a self-cutting replacement oil drain plug. They do make them for people who do such silly things, although I would suggest using your used oil to flush out the pan again after installing one (to clear out any shavings).
(3) Install a heli-coil or a KeenSert. I don't like HeliCoils all that much; I think KeenSerts are a much better solution, since they replace the entire hole, instead of just the ridges of the threads.
(4) Replace the oil pan with an used one. Best solution and one I've used. Drop the exhaust, undo the bolts for the oil pan, throw in the new one with a new gasket (gaskete is $12). Here's where it gets tricky for you: retorque the oil pan bolts to 10 lb-ft (many torque wrenches don't even go that low -- again, beam type has an advantage here). If you hear any cracking noises, you're too tight. The pan bolts only need to have enough pressure on them to hold the pan oil-tight -- there's no real pressure against the pan itself.

I borrowed the torque wrench .... and, it is adjustable to 16.5 ft-lbs.

1. Retapping sounds like a good option. Due diligence would have me ask if there's sufficient metal around the original hole/tap. Can anyone confirm?
Will need stuff to retap. Home Depot to the rescue?
As for welding on more aluminum - I wouldn't know how. And since I'd like to take care of this myself, not viable.
Are fumoto valves readily available?
I think BISQ mentioned a drill/tap set would run about as much as a new pan.

2. I'll check with the stealership if they carry self tapping plugs.

3. Would like to explore this (either Keensert or heli-coil). Any issue with long term integrity of such a fix?
Lack of other ideas points me to Home Depot.
Possible to install fumoto valve with this kind of fix?

4. Replacing the pan: used or new. Sounds good. Don't know if I want to get into cleaning/etc. a real old one ..... thanks, though.
Uhhh .... since I could, potentially, have ruined the pan drain myself (I prefer to think it was the previous owner), I don't want to ruin the next pan too. Should probably stay away from too many torque requirements. That's why the fumoto sounds pretty good.
For the record, I never stripped the drain plugs on any of my cars ......

Now some general stuff: will I need bike stands or any other lifts, etc.? I'd prefer to stick to a fix which doesn't require me to build a state of the art workshop to get past this problem. I hope you guys know what I mean.

[HS2020]

A Brand new Oil pan from the Dealer will cost you $80. I know I busted my pan the day before I went to the rally. I cracked the threads and up the side of the pan. I got a used one that night for $75 just because the guy was coming my way from KY. So If I were you I would get a new oil pan and gasket and be done with it. That is the best and only option I would go. I plan on buying a new oil pan this winter and just keep the new used one I have has a back up. The one I have came off a pre 98 600 and my bike is a pre98 750. It fit and does not leak.

[The CyberPoet]

(A) Torque wrenches, especially the clicker types, do very poorly with the lower end of the setting range and are supposed to be recalibrated every year. This is why I use a visible-beam style torque wrench for most of what's on the Kat.

(B) You have several options (many of them mentioned already):
(1) Retap the pan for a larger size drain (stock bolt is 14mm x 1.25 turns for the 98+ and I think the pre-98's use the same)... or a variation on the same theme -- weld in more aluminum and retap to the original size. Good time for a fumoto valve at this time...
(2) Get a self-cutting replacement oil drain plug. They do make them for people who do such silly things, although I would suggest using your used oil to flush out the pan again after installing one (to clear out any shavings).
(3) Install a heli-coil or a KeenSert. I don't like HeliCoils all that much; I think KeenSerts are a much better solution, since they replace the entire hole, instead of just the ridges of the threads.
(4) Replace the oil pan with an used one. Best solution and one I've used. Drop the exhaust, undo the bolts for the oil pan, throw in the new one with a new gasket (gaskete is $12). Here's where it gets tricky for you: retorque the oil pan bolts to 10 lb-ft (many torque wrenches don't even go that low -- again, beam type has an advantage here). If you hear any cracking noises, you're too tight. The pan bolts only need to have enough pressure on them to hold the pan oil-tight -- there's no real pressure against the pan itself.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[SurfinCR]

this is a pan from an 88 but it is in good shape. just needs to be cleaned up.

i dont know if you do this or not but a good rule of thumb is to start the plug by hand until you can no longer do it and never over tighten thats what i was always taught and its worked for me.

[nurider]

take as much time as you need, its been up for sale for a week now and i have had it since november. so there no rush at all. make sure along with the gasket you get the copper crush washer with o ring. if i remember right i was told that should be replaced. correct me if i am wrong though

will check with the stealership tomorrow.

As for replacing the pan, how much time are we talking about?

Is this a new pan or are you farming out parts from an old bike?

And if the stripping was my fault (no, Lou, not that kind of stripping), how do I make sure I don't do anything stupid the next time?

[nurider]

i have an oil pan if you need one let me know...how does 15$ plus shipping sound if you want it?

See? There you go! :P

Get a new gasket, though.

Even as I was wiping the oil from my hands when this happened, my thoughts were "get to KR, somebody there will be able to get me through this w/o losing riding time this weekend". Sheer terror, the thought of not riding this weekend!

Thanks BISQ.