[1982SZ]

Gas mileage decreses, yes.

Eating fuel systems = bull****, pure and simple. PURE ethanol will eat rubber, yes. 10% concentration in gasoline? Pure BS. The ethanol haters take the facts about PURE ethanol and use them to program people to think it's harmful to fuel systems when in fact it's not. Sure, it may leave some funky residue, but it's not corrosive in 10% dilutions. Try again please.

So to reiterate, running pure alcohol is bad for your stuff. The 10% blends we use here will only make the mileage decrease.

Oh, I did not realize we were doing cross-talk BS on other people's opinions?

No, it's not pure BS, it's my experience and the shared opinion of others who ride and race motorcycles, run equipment like gas weed whackers/mowers/chain saws, and cars. It's the shared opinion of several motorcycle race shop owners, and bike racers alike; ANY ethanol is bad for your bike's fuel system, unless you are running THAT engine EVERY day. It makes a HUGE difference in power delivery as well.

No, I don't consider trackdays to be racing-I'm talking about actually racing in a series like CCS and WERA; there are ZERO racers who will run 10-15% ethanol or blend it with their race fuels.

Go to any small engine repair shop that works on saws, mowers, etc., and they will tell you the same thing: ANY ethanol in these fuel systems is crap for performance AND increases service needs.

SO, I'll play the devil's advocate here and ask: WTF would you buy a product which decreases your fuel mileage, when it's easy enough to find ethanol-free fuels? Would you purposefully throw a handful of dirt into your air filter? Would you purposefully run your engine's oil level too low? Do you put the wrong gap onto spark plugs? Do you run your tires under-inflated?

If there's nothing to ethanol-free gasoline, why are sooo many people fond of it? Duh.

http://pure-gas.org/

ic ic thanks a bunch on the replys!

No problem. Pay no attention to the haters.

Here's a list of eth.-free stations in VA....

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA

[il_ragazzo]

WTF would you buy a product which decreases your fuel mileage, when it's easy enough to find ethanol-free fuels?

Because finding "cleaner", more abundant fuel, and renewable fuels is important for a warming planet with a population approaching 8 billion.

People have been running alcohol motors for years, even in motors sports... almost pure alcohol ... [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_alcohol_fuel"]Timeline of alcohol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[l1tech]

Because finding "cleaner", more abundant fuel, and renewable fuels is important for a warming planet with a population approaching 8 billion.

People have been running alcohol motors for years, even in motors sports... almost pure alcohol ... Timeline of alcohol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alcohol blends and pure alcohol fuels are fine if the fuel system and engine are designed to run on it. Carbureted vehicles designed to run on non-ethanol fuels suffer fuel mileage loss and deterioration of fuel system components due to the corrosive effects of alcohol. Late model vehicles handle blends better because there are no rubber fuel system components, sofisticated electronics to control fuel and ignition systems. They still suffer MPG loss vs non-ethanol fuels. Pure alcohol fuels (metanol/ethanol) make great power, burn cleaner but the amount of fuel required is nearly double the fuel volume as gas so doesn't make it very cost effective. As technology advances and the cost to produce alcohol fuels comes down it may one day be a viable alternative, but for now gas (better yet, diesel), are still the most efficient and cost effective fuels.

[1982SZ]

Because finding "cleaner", more abundant fuel, and renewable fuels is important for a warming planet with a population approaching 8 billion.

People have been running alcohol motors for years, even in motors sports... almost pure alcohol ... Timeline of alcohol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you aware of the history of ethanol/methanol? I am.

Guess what? It has NO BEARING on WHY you would NOT use ethanol in motorcycles today.

Go to the website I posted a link to, pure-gas.org and find a station near you. Start putting it into your bikes, gas cars, lawn mower, chain saws, weed wacker, generators, leaf blowers, boat, snow blower, jet skiis, etc.. (Sorry, I figured most people in these forums were adults who take care of homes they own.) You'll have better performance, less down time for maintenance, AND you're saving the environment.

NO, ethanol additives use MORE resources to produce it, than ther is energy created: it's a negative energy formula, NOT a solution to anything except excessive piles of corn.

[scottynoface]

Are you aware of the history of ethanol/methanol? I am.

Guess what? It has NO BEARING on WHY you would NOT use ethanol in motorcycles today.

Go to the website I posted a link to, pure-gas.org and find a station near you. Start putting it into your bikes, gas cars, lawn mower, chain saws, weed wacker, generators, leaf blowers, boat, snow blower, jet skiis, etc.. (Sorry, I figured most people in these forums were adults who take care of homes they own.) You'll have better performance, less down time for maintenance, AND you're saving the environment.

NO, ethanol additives use MORE resources to produce it, than ther is energy created: it's a negative energy formula, NOT a solution to anything except excessive piles of corn.

If you're trying to present a valid argument, dont act so condescending

All of what you're saying is good science, but until one of the engines we have suffers catastrophic fuel system failure (as you keep pushing) its all just heresay.

All of my lawn care equipment sits for the most part, as do my bikes, even my carburated dirtbike, know how many issues I've had? Zero.

And the benefit to ethanol fuel is that it's NOT foreign petroleum, thats it, that was the whole purpose of ethanol as a fuel in the first place...REDUCING DEPENDENCE ON OIL THAT IS RUNNING OUT. Go tell someone in south america about how bad ethanol is for fuel systems, see how hard they laugh.

[STULER]

Your buddies are most likely ****ing away money. Most modern bikes only require 87 octane. To be 100% sure, check the owners manual.

Your Kat only needs 87. Anything else is a waste.

If his buddies all ride rr type bikes, they are right. any supersport bike now a days must use AT LEAST 90 octane. I throw 91 or 93 octane in my ZX14 and CBR1100xx. Anything less could cause engine damage.

and this thread has been discussed like at least a half million times. lol and honestly... gas is what .20 cents more a gallon for premium. so you put in an extra .80 worth of gas. big deal. i lose more than .80 in change during every fill up. I always used at LEAST mid grade when I owned my katana. it ran a bit better.

If you are in question, consult your owners manual... it will tell you 87 octane for the kat. putting 89 or 91 will not do any harm, nor good

[scottynoface]

If his buddies all ride rr type bikes, they are right. any supersport bike now a days must use AT LEAST 90 octane. I throw 91 or 93 octane in my ZX14 and CBR1100xx. Anything less could cause engine damage.

So wrong, on so many levels...

[STULER]

So wrong, on so many levels...

Care to enlighten me? Most all the rr bikes have stickers on the gas tanks that say use at least 90 octane gasoline? dont believe me? go to the dealer. Ill take pictures next time i go. Hell, i have one on my bike...just to be clear, im talking bigger cc bikes. like 1000+'s

[scottynoface]

Care to enlighten me? Most all the rr bikes have stickers on the gas tanks that say use at least 90 octane gasoline? dont believe me? go to the dealer. Ill take pictures next time i go. Hell, i have one on my bike...just to be clear, im talking bigger cc bikes. like 1000+'s

1.) Size of the engine has absolutely NOTHING to do with required octane.

2.) Do you know what an octane rating really means? Because if you don't want to listen I'm not going to waste my time explaining it.

3.) Your service manual has details about a break in period, are you gonna do all that crap too just because they tell you to? They tell people to use higher grade gas because most people would have no clue how to detect pre ignition, which is the sole purpose of higher octane.



2006 ZX14 CR - 12:1
2003 ZX636 CR - 12.8:1

According to Kawasaki, 87oct is just fine in my bike, so the ZX14 should be even MORE ok with it.

Seriously, engine size means nothing in this discussion, as do the little stickers on the tank that they use to cover their ***.

[HemiKat]

....and its 100,000,000 posts like this why I stopped coming around.

[STULER]

1.) Size of the engine has absolutely NOTHING to do with required octane.

2.) Do you know what an octane rating really means? Because if you don't want to listen I'm not going to waste my time explaining it.

3.) Your service manual has details about a break in period, are you gonna do all that crap too just because they tell you to? They tell people to use higher grade gas because most people would have no clue how to detect pre ignition, which is the sole purpose of higher octane.



2006 ZX14 CR - 12:1
2003 ZX636 CR - 12.8:1

According to Kawasaki, 87oct is just fine in my bike, so the ZX14 should be even MORE ok with it.

Seriously, engine size means nothing in this discussion, as do the little stickers on the tank that they use to cover their ***.

They write the owners manual because that is the best way the bike will run. This isn't a valid argument. When it comes to break in period, everyone knows not to beat the sh!t out of a brand new engine. If you do, your a fool. You ease into it. They tell you to you higher grade gas for a reason. Here's a point, say if 99% of the bikes nowadays all say use 87 gas, why would the manufacturer tell you to use 90 or above octane on only one or a handful of models? doesnt make sense.

Its all preference. I would rather spend the 10$ a year extra to put premium gasoline in my bikes.

[arsenic]

No, you do not "ease into it". An engine break in period is to properly seat the piston rings. Therefore you should drive it hard. If you "ease into it" you're rings will not seal properly and you'll have a weak engine. The break in procedure listed in the owners and service manual is based on really outdated technology and metallurgy. Read: Break-In Secrets

[STULER]

No, you do not "ease into it". An engine break in period is to properly seat the piston rings. Therefore you should drive it hard. If you "ease into it" you're rings will not seal properly and you'll have a weak engine. The break in procedure listed in the owners and service manual is based on really outdated technology and metallurgy. Read: Break-In Secrets

"Ease into it" was a general term. What I meant to say was that you should not wail on your engine when you first get it. But you shouldnt keep it like under 4k rpms either. You are supposed to alternate rpms. from higher to lower. Just like the manual says.

Scotty: if what your saying about compression is true, then why do cars such as corvettes, only have 11.0:1 ratio, less than both our bikes, require premium fuel?

I'm not trying to start an argument here, just stating what I have read from car manuals and credible websites.

[05RedKat600]

"Ease into it" was a general term. What I meant to say was that you should not wail on your engine when you first get it. But you shouldnt keep it like under 4k rpms either. You are supposed to alternate rpms. from higher to lower. Just like the manual says.

Scotty: if what your saying about compression is true, then why do cars such as corvettes, only have 11.0:1 ratio, less than both our bikes, require premium fuel?

I'm not trying to start an argument here, just stating what I have read from car manuals and credible websites.

Many, many things other than compression ratio and timing determine fuel requirements. Valve size, valve overlap, spark plug type, placement and depth, burn pattern, etc. Basing fuel requirement purely on compression ratio or timing is rather silly.

FYI, Corvette's is due mostly to timing. We run 34+ degrees advance on our Chump car with a 350 in it. Kats run 10 degrees timing, for comparison.

[boomer_95]

OK back to the original question....... the higher ratings of fuel (I'll use all ratings without ethanol. 87 included. again NO ETHANOL) there is only ONE difference between them. and the one and only difference is to stop detonation in engines. the rating refers to the MON/RON rating of octane. the higher the rating the better at stopping detonation it is. yes different places have different "additives" to help the fuel systems but that aside....

now lower grade fuels usually have ethanol (i don't think there is a place around that doesn't have it in 87) were as higher grades don't tend to have it. mid grades can be a mix of the two (so maybe half the ethanol of regular) or completely without depending on the station

ethanol breaks down VERY quick and is a weaker burn than regular gasoline so there is some performance in higher grades when your talking about with and without it. it also holds on to water..

small engine manuals usually say to run a little higher rating in them but that's only because they know the engine isn't being used 24/7 like automotive and ethanol breaks down ALOT faster than non ethanol.. high performance engines are a different question . with regards to the extreme timing of the spark and valves and the usually very high compression. but the principle is the same regardless. they need the higher octane to stop the earlier detonation that they will produce. i went to school for this and am a technician.. I'm not some random guy on the Internet saying bla bla bla. (well i guess technically i am lol)