Cry for help... starting after sitting for 8 years

[chukrad]

Tried many things that I have found on this site and still the bike makes a better paperweight than transportation. These are the facts (hopefully in a coherent order)

- Bike sounds like it almost starts, but doesn't quite start.

- Bike is 95 600 with about 8.5k miles. Bike ran when parked. But apparently had trouble starting.

- Thanks to CARBS 101, carbs have been cleaned. I did a complete dis-assembly, soaked in carb cleaner over night, blew out with an aerosol can of carb cleaner because I don't have an air compressor and had cleaner lying around. I replaced vacuum port rings because they were starting to shred. Screws turned out to 1.75 per the tutorial. Pre-synched carbs per tutorial. #4 carb was extremely dirty/charred, aka looks like backfire.

- A friend set the floats (he is pretty anal about getting things done correctly so I don't think this is the problem).

- Petcock functions normally.

- Verified spark, and just in case spark was weak I did the coil relay mod.

- New plugs.

- Tried starting with airbox completely removed, I think that eliminates bad filter.

- I can feel the vacuum line pulse against my thumb when trying to start with it not attached to the petcock.

- Yes, the choke is wide open.

- Carbs 1,2,3 all have gas in the bowls.

- Carb 4 somehow does not have gas in the bowl (I haven't looked into this yet, in my mind this would affect overall performance and not necessarily keep it from starting, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG)

- Pulled starter clutch, no signs of wear or damage.

- When the battery starts to get low re-charge it.

- Battery charger is new.

- Tried to start powered from a car battery.

-- Only thing I know I haven't checked is compression. Most of what I've read for compression checks assume the bike is already in running condition. Is it a waste of time to check it cold?

Any advice is very welcome.

Thanks

chukrad

[05RedKat600]

First thing, Carbs 101 is wrong, should be 2.5 turns out. Are those the only o-rings you replaced? What about the plugs in the bottom of the carbs?

Carb 4 not having fuel is definitely an issue. Fix that before you try and start it.

[chukrad]

Thanks for the response. I will go set 2.5 turns.

Do you mean the plugs over the smaller jets? No. Only the vacuum port rings were showing wear (i.e. falling apart). Oh, and I replaced the o-rings between the plastic piece and the carb body where the emulsion tube seats.

Where should I be looking for carb 4 issue. Does no gas mean that the passage in the float is clogged?

Forgot to mention earlier that I check all the valve clearances, and anomalies have been set to within spec.

[05RedKat600]

Thanks for the response. I will go set 2.5 turns.

Do you mean the plugs over the smaller jets? No. Only the vacuum port rings were showing wear (i.e. falling apart). Oh, and I replaced the o-rings between the plastic piece and the carb body where the emulsion tube seats.

Where should I be looking for carb 4 issue. Does no gas mean that the passage in the float is clogged?

Forgot to mention earlier that I check all the valve clearances, and anomalies have been set to within spec.

Most likely either the float is sticking or the needle is sticking. Personally, if the carbs had sat for 8 years, I'd be replacing every rubber piece in them.

It's highly doubtful that the fuel rail has plugged. It's more likely that during reassembly the o-ring got jammed in there wrong or something. Inspect the needle and float, then if that is OK take the carb off the rail and inspect the opening.

Were you trying to start it with the airbox on and a factory filter? Any jetkit in this or stock jets?

[arsenic]

I realize you're trying to fix, your carbs. Feel free to do so. I'm just letting you know, you have the option to purchase a set already rebuilt.
carburetors carbs Suzuki GSX600F Katana 600 90-97
carburetors carbs Suzuki GSX600F Katana 600 90-97
If you are intrested in purchasing a rebuilt set, send me a PM. I can work out a deal for you and I'll give you a core refund for your old set. Let me know.

[chukrad]

Were you trying to start it with the airbox on and a factory filter? Any jetkit in this or stock jets?

I had the entire box off, carbs had nothing between them and sweet, sweet oxygen.

Everything is bone stock as far as I can tell, no jet kit, only 1 spot for the ring to be installed on the needle.

[05RedKat600]

I had the entire box off, carbs had nothing between them and sweet, sweet oxygen.

Everything is bone stock as far as I can tell, no jet kit, only 1 spot for the ring to be installed on the needle.

Oh. You need the stock airbox and filter installed to have it run right. No joke, they won't run without it.

[chukrad]

Apparently I am a liar. Carb 4 was getting gas (that smell is my gas covered shoe)

same results @ 2.5 turns. nada

gonna order new rubber everything tomorrow for the carbs. That usually takes a week to get it into the motorcycle shop.

Is there anything else I can check in the meantime?

[Kreylyn]

Did you soak the float rails in the dip as well?

Are you sure the "choke" starter jets on the float rails are clean, and did you spray cleaner through them to make sure you get a full spray from the jet?

Did you spray the cleaner through the inside of the choke plunger port and make sure it was coming out stronly from the pickup tube that inserts into the choke rails?

I ask this cause it may be your "choke" simply isn't adding enough fuel for a cold start.

If you get a chance, I would pick up a small disposable spray bottle, put a little gas in it... and "spritz" the intakes on the carbs with gas and try to start it (a manual version of our choke system as you will).

If it will start that way, then you at least know it's a fueling issue, and not something like plug wires/plugs, etc...

Krey

[steves]

First thing, Carbs 101 is wrong, should be 2.5 turns out. Are those the only o-rings you replaced? What about the plugs in the bottom of the carbs?

Carb 4 not having fuel is definitely an issue. Fix that before you try and start it.

Carbs 101 isn't wrong, it gives you the stock settings for the carbs.

Most uses will find 2.5 turns out to be the proper mix as it's lean from the factory.

[loudnlow7484]

First, have you looked at the plugs? Dry plugs + no start = not getting gas. Soaked plugs + no start = getting way too much gas, or no spark.

If it's not getting gas, hit it with some ether and get it to fire up. The vacuum from the engine running can get enough fuel moving to keep it running some times. If not, then dig into the carbs.

If the plugs are soaked, then check your spark (with a spare plug, grounded against the engine while cranking). If it has a STRONG spark, then move on to figuring out why it's getting too much fuel. Dry the cylinders out, and try to start it with no choke at all. Maybe bump the idle adjustment up a little to lean it out a bit more.

Oh, and are you positive that the coils are wired right? They don't run so hot if the coils are reversed......

Oh. You need the stock airbox and filter installed to have it run right. No joke, they won't run without it.

I've never used the airbox while setting a/f screws or synching, and my bikes run swimmingly.

The actual vacuum that is present inside the airbox at idle is so minute as to not even be readable with your average vacuum gauge, and the vacuum where it counts (behind the butterfly) is thoroughly massive. If you can give me a good, logical explanation as to why a small variation in pressure on the outside of the butterfly would have any effect at all at idle, then I will not only admit you're right, but also change my signature to "05RedKat600 is a genius, and I'm retarded" for a week.

I would gladly demonstrate this, except that I have no stockish bike to demonstrate it on. The GSXR has flatslides, and demonstrating it on the YZF would be a bit irrelevant.

Before you try, I would like to point out that if you look at it like a constant vacuum and the resulting flow through a restriction, you'll get the (wrong) conclusion that it makes a big difference in flow...... but we aren't dealing with a constant vacuum here; we're dealing with a constant, very low, flow, and a constant sized restriction. The variable you're looking for is vacuum, and you will without a doubt find that as the flow decreases, so does the difference in vacuum between restrictions of different sizes, until it approaches zero when the flow is low enough.

An example of a graph you are likely to find about this situation (it's dealing with pressure in liquids, but it's the same concept):



You see, as the flow decreases towards zero, so does the pressure drop (or vacuum in our case). And with it, the difference between restrictions becomes smaller, until it is nearly nonexistent.

[Kreylyn]

First, have you looked at the plugs? Dry plugs + no start = not getting gas. Soaked plugs + no start = getting way too much gas, or no spark.

If it's not getting gas, hit it with some ether and get it to fire up. The vacuum from the engine running can get enough fuel moving to keep it running some times. If not, then dig into the carbs.

If the plugs are soaked, then check your spark (with a spare plug, grounded against the engine while cranking). If it has a STRONG spark, then move on to figuring out why it's getting too much fuel. Dry the cylinders out, and try to start it with no choke at all. Maybe bump the idle adjustment up a little to lean it out a bit more.

Oh, and are you positive that the coils are wired right? They don't run so hot if the coils are reversed......



I've never used the airbox while setting a/f screws or synching, and my bikes run swimmingly.

The actual vacuum that is present inside the airbox at idle is so minute as to not even be readable with your average vacuum gauge, and the vacuum where it counts (behind the butterfly) is thoroughly massive. If you can give me a good, logical explanation as to why a small variation in pressure on the outside of the butterfly would have any effect at all at idle, then I will not only admit you're right, but also change my signature to "05RedKat600 is a genius, and I'm retarded" for a week.

I would gladly demonstrate this, except that I have no stockish bike to demonstrate it on. The GSXR has flatslides, and demonstrating it on the YZF would be a bit irrelevant.

Before you try, I would like to point out that if you look at it like a constant vacuum and the resulting flow through a restriction, you'll get the (wrong) conclusion that it makes a big difference in flow...... but we aren't dealing with a constant vacuum here; we're dealing with a constant, very low, flow, and a constant sized restriction. The variable you're looking for is vacuum, and you will without a doubt find that as the flow decreases, so does the difference in vacuum between restrictions of different sizes, until it approaches zero when the flow is low enough.

An example of a graph you are likely to find about this situation (it's dealing with pressure in liquids, but it's the same concept):



You see, as the flow decreases towards zero, so does the pressure drop (or vacuum in our case). And with it, the difference between restrictions becomes smaller, until it is nearly nonexistent.

Pull the drain plug from a post kat's airbox and see how it changes how it runs... It does make a diff.

krey

[05RedKat600]

First, have you looked at the plugs? Dry plugs + no start = not getting gas. Soaked plugs + no start = getting way too much gas, or no spark.

If it's not getting gas, hit it with some ether and get it to fire up. The vacuum from the engine running can get enough fuel moving to keep it running some times. If not, then dig into the carbs.

If the plugs are soaked, then check your spark (with a spare plug, grounded against the engine while cranking). If it has a STRONG spark, then move on to figuring out why it's getting too much fuel. Dry the cylinders out, and try to start it with no choke at all. Maybe bump the idle adjustment up a little to lean it out a bit more.

Oh, and are you positive that the coils are wired right? They don't run so hot if the coils are reversed......



I've never used the airbox while setting a/f screws or synching, and my bikes run swimmingly.

The actual vacuum that is present inside the airbox at idle is so minute as to not even be readable with your average vacuum gauge, and the vacuum where it counts (behind the butterfly) is thoroughly massive. If you can give me a good, logical explanation as to why a small variation in pressure on the outside of the butterfly would have any effect at all at idle, then I will not only admit you're right, but also change my signature to "05RedKat600 is a genius, and I'm retarded" for a week.

I would gladly demonstrate this, except that I have no stockish bike to demonstrate it on. The GSXR has flatslides, and demonstrating it on the YZF would be a bit irrelevant.

Before you try, I would like to point out that if you look at it like a constant vacuum and the resulting flow through a restriction, you'll get the (wrong) conclusion that it makes a big difference in flow...... but we aren't dealing with a constant vacuum here; we're dealing with a constant, very low, flow, and a constant sized restriction. The variable you're looking for is vacuum, and you will without a doubt find that as the flow decreases, so does the difference in vacuum between restrictions of different sizes, until it approaches zero when the flow is low enough.

An example of a graph you are likely to find about this situation (it's dealing with pressure in liquids, but it's the same concept):



You see, as the flow decreases towards zero, so does the pressure drop (or vacuum in our case). And with it, the difference between restrictions becomes smaller, until it is nearly nonexistent.

See Kreylyn's post. Also, don't you have flatslides? Those are completely different from Post carbs.

Pull the drain plug from a post kat's airbox and see how it changes how it runs... It does make a diff.

krey

Yup. For further proof, read this thread, where we are currently covering this very subject.

http://katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=121378&page=2

[chukrad]

Thanks guys for all the advice. I will be ordering new rubber everything today or tomorrow at the local shop (i think they are closed on Mondays, only place in hillsboro that closes on Monday), but I will get to trying everything suggested a midst my work schedule till then and post results to specific questions as I have them.

I see that there are some portlanders here. Are there any shops around the area that stock Suzuki parts so I don't have to wait 7-10 days for hillsboro motosport to order the parts?

thanks again guys

[Wild-Bill]

Look for a place that sells parts but isn't a dealer. Take the o-rings and float needles with you. Unless you need something other than those they'll probably have generics the right size in stock and they may even have bowl gaskets in stock. I had a place in Little Rock which was awesome that way.