Please be something simple.

[96Kat75085]

Today I changed out my motor on the 96 Katana. Had a spare from a donor bike that has all the gear working since mine is missing 3rd. I figure it would be a simple swap but seems I have ran into a big problem.
I was not able to hear the motor run while it was on the other donor frame/bike besides it turning over. I swapped the motor and now left with it just wanting to turn over. Also i did not put oil back in the motor ad of yet just in the off change that this happen. I checked the spark Plugs from the motor and noticed it was different then what the other one took.



As you can see one produces a better spark...... I guess

Now the problem is that the bike will crank over but will not fire up and run. It is getting spark and is getting fuel. So, why is not firing over?

FYI: I switched the leads around on the Coils and even the plug wires hoping for a running bike and no such luck. If your siting on the bike: Lt Coil - Orange wire on top and yellow on bottom right?

[arsenic]

You tried to start an engine with no oil in it? Really?

[Smithgsx]

i was thinking the same thing....bad gouges, maybe even friction lock. smooooooth dude. add oil, gain substantial oil pressure, if you havent spun a bearing by now, and retry.

please tell me theres gas in the tank and the valve is on.....

[96Kat75085]

I am glad you guys assume I am really that dumb... it it fired up I would not let it run like that...Give me some credit....

Could it not having oil prevent it from running? Lets assume it has oil in it. Where does that leave me? Bent Valve? Timing off?

Could the coil packs off the donor bike be different?

If it not having oil prevents a motor from firing over then i need to be schooled in Combustion Engines again. Granted it is not wise for you to run a motor with out oil.

That being said: I am NEW to working on bikes.... And welcome a class in Bikes 101

[Smithgsx]

well, to be blunt, were not assuming youre dumb. only the mistake of not adding oil in the first place is dumb. when you run anything, no matter how long without proper lubrication, damage is almost certain. and seeing as this is from a parts bike, all of the oil that may have still been in the cylinders dripped out, leaving bare metal on metal. if it wont start, check the usual. Spark, fuel, and air. no spark? coils or wiring issues. check thru everything, make sure its all in check. no fuel being delivered? check carbs, make sure nothing is plugged and all sliders arent stuck (go into further detail about cleaning carbs, but ask someone else, im new to those myself) and air is obviously not an issue, unless you block the passages purposely, or youre getting too much. if its not any of those, youre probably looking at a teardown of the engine.

[05RedKat600]

You have gas, and it's on, but are the plugs wet? If it's not firing, they should be wet with fuel after cranking for a bit. If the plugs aren't wet, then you have gas but it's not making it to the combustion chamber. Could be any number of things there. The other engine may require a different plug, so don't assume that is the issue.

[96Kat75085]

well, to be blunt, were not assuming youre dumb. only the mistake of not adding oil in the first place is dumb. when you run anything, no matter how long without proper lubrication, damage is almost certain. and seeing as this is from a parts bike, all of the oil that may have still been in the cylinders dripped out, leaving bare metal on metal. if it wont start, check the usual. Spark, fuel, and air. no spark? coils or wiring issues. check thru everything, make sure its all in check. no fuel being delivered? check carbs, make sure nothing is plugged and all sliders arent stuck (go into further detail about cleaning carbs, but ask someone else, im new to those myself) and air is obviously not an issue, unless you block the passages purposely, or youre getting too much. if its not any of those, youre probably looking at a teardown of the engine.

Please read what I have said about Spark and Air/Fuel....

You have gas, and it's on, but are the plugs wet? If it's not firing, they should be wet with fuel after cranking for a bit. If the plugs aren't wet, then you have gas but it's not making it to the combustion chamber. Could be any number of things there. The other engine may require a different plug, so don't assume that is the issue.

Yeah Plugs become wet.... I clean them off and try again no such luck... I believe you can hear "sometimes" like a muffled pop as though it is trying to fire up... Maybe i need to use the coil packs from the other bike. Would they differ in the pre years?

[Smithgsx]

ahh, my apologies. didnt see that part. you know, im rather interested to see the answers on this now, as i'm having the exact same issue with mine. i would assume its the same thing as mine, just needs the carbs looked through.

[burrsg101]

There's the possibility that its just flooding itself and fouling the plugs up with gas preventing spark. Try taking one of the plugs out and plug the wire onto it and then ground the threads of the plug to the engine and turn it over. Obviously I mean after it's been cleaned, but if it sparks then it's just flooding itself. The fact that it fires every once and a while says that there's spark and fuel, probably just too much fuel.

Also even just turning it over with no oil is terrible for it. Startup is one of the hardest things on an engine because there isn't any oil pressure yet and it just has a thin film of oil residue left from the last running, but if it hasn't been run in a while then its just metal on metal as all that oil residue has fallen off. The bearings in an engine literally float on a very thin strip of oil thats pressure fed into the bearings. Not having that pressure there to keep the oil in much less the oil itself means your bearings are just grinding themselves away. They create grooves very fast and those grooves prevent that thin film of oil from properly lubricating so it starts being metal on metal even after there's proper oil in it. I wouldn't be surprised if it spun a bearing real soon after you get it running, if it hasn't already.

Oil to a small amount also helps the piston rings seal so yes no oil will cause a running problem other than the obvious bearing failure. Not having oil on them isn't going to just totally kill the seal they provide but it helps it. Combustion/compression pressure is mostly what seals the piston rings as they're tapered so the more pressure exerted down on them the harder they push against the cylinder walls. Oil also keeps all kinds of seals from drying out and failing such as your valve seals. I'm not saying there failing because of a few times turning over the engine but you get my point.

When you swapped the engine did you reuse the carbs off your original engine or from the donor? If they're from the donor swap your originals back on. This sounds like a carb issue to me. Also careful for how long you let the starter run for at a time. I thought this would be common knowledge that your not supposed to run any starter for more than 10 seconds at most but I've seen tons of people just crank away. It overheats the starter bad. Not saying you don;t know this just making sure. I think out manuals say no more than like 6 seconds though for the bikes, but that's probably because much more than that and the battery dies.

[96Kat75085]

There's the possibility that its just flooding itself and fouling the plugs up with gas preventing spark. Try taking one of the plugs out and plug the wire onto it and then ground the threads of the plug to the engine and turn it over. Obviously I mean after it's been cleaned, but if it sparks then it's just flooding itself.

Also even just turning it over with no oil is terrible for it. Startup is one of the hardest things on an engine because there isn't any oil pressure yet and it just has a thin film of oil residue left from the last running, but if it hasn't been run in a while then its just metal on metal as all that oil residue has fallen off. The bearings in an engine literally float on a very thin strip of oil thats pressure fed into the bearings. Not having that pressure there to keep the oil in much less the oil itself means your bearings are just grinding themselves away. They create grooves very fast and those grooves prevent that thin film of oil from properly lubricating so it starts being metal on metal even after there's proper oil in it. I wouldn't be surprised if it spun a bearing real soon after you get it running, if it hasn't already.

Oil to a small amount also helps the piston rings seal so yes no oil will cause a running problem other than the obvious bearing failure. Not having oil on them isn't going to just totally kill the seal they provide but it helps it. Combustion/compression pressure is mostly what seals the piston rings as they're tapered so the more pressure exerted down on them the harder they push against the cylinder walls. Oil also keeps all kinds of seals from drying out and failing such as your valve seals. I'm not saying there failing because of a few times turning over the engine but you get my point.

When you swapped the engine did you reuse the carbs off your original engine or from the donor? If they're from the donor swap your originals back on. This sounds like a carb issue to me.

You brought me to school.... Thank You! Also both sets of carbs are clean and work just one has not be synced to the motor yet. Currently have the old motors carbs on it casue i know they run for sure.

[burrsg101]

Carbs being out of sync wouldn't make it entirely not run unless they were REALLY far off but I don't know that it would then even. Maybe try the ones that were on the engine and see if it runs. It really sounds to me like its flooding. You should double check everything in the swap and add at least some ****ty oil of some kind into it so it has some sort of lubrication before continuing. Make sure the air filter is good and doesn't have any nesting animals in it(I once rode my mom's bike for over 30 miles with a mouse giving birth inside the airbox while I rode, needless to say it ran like garbage) or in the air box, make sure all carb boots are secured and not kinked or leaking, and check for any exhaust obstructions. I don't know how many times I'd get into something fun and muddy with the dirt bikes and try to hop on and ride the next day to find that it won't start due to the exhaust being sealed shut somehow with dried mud. The first time that happened I almost sold it until I was closing up the garage and saw a piece of hay sticking out of the tail pipe. Try starting with and without choke as well.

Another thing to try is ether(starting fluid). Spray a little down into each carb and pop the throttle a tad when you go to start it. If it starts on that its a fueling problem, most likely the pilot screws being set wrong, or the pilot circuit itself has some problems. Don't get carried away with it though, ether eats and drys out everything in engines and should only be used if necessary and in small amounts.

[96Kat75085]

Okay, Here is where i have gotten so far. Oil is in the bike, checked all the wires and made sure gas was reaching the carbs. It turns over and you sometimes hear a popping noise as thought it wants to fire up. Still has not fired up. What next? Where are the Katana Mechanic at? LOL

[Smithgsx]

do you know if the motors you are using are from different years? if i've read correctly, there are different size carbs from 88-89, and 90-97. if they are off size, that may cause issues. also, if they were moved around alot, or not used for a while, there may be small debris that plugged passageways, or the floats got knocked off spec. not guaranteeing anything, but its an idea to start with.

[Kreylyn]

Okay, Here is where i have gotten so far. Oil is in the bike, checked all the wires and made sure gas was reaching the carbs. It turns over and you sometimes hear a popping noise as thought it wants to fire up. Still has not fired up. What next? Where are the Katana Mechanic at? LOL

Use a volt meter and check voltage in the following...

Key off battery post to post.
Key on Battery post to post.
Key on Coils at orange/w wire.
Starter turning at battery post to post.
Starter turning at coils orange/w wire.

Krey

[96Kat75085]

do you know if the motors you are using are from different years? if i've read correctly, there are different size carbs from 88-89, and 90-97. if they are off size, that may cause issues. also, if they were moved around alot, or not used for a while, there may be small debris that plugged passageways, or the floats got knocked off spec. not guaranteeing anything, but its an idea to start with.

It a 93 or 94 Motor.... my bike is a 96.