[DoyleDee]

Centifigual force would work against you if you have the weights inside the rim...fyi, they would fly off and be stuck inside the tire--throwing the balance wayyyy off until you remove the tires and take them out. Stick on weights use double sided tape--try it if you want....but post up when they fail--we should be hearing from you soon.

OOPS...wayy late post ..my bad

[JHONNY_ICE_420]

There are 2 things that I am desperately trying to understand -- You pay HOW MUCH for a tire mount? I pay $8 a tire if I pull it myself; and also my changer knows I'll never sue him so long as he does a decent job and I WATCH EVERY TIRE, EVERY TIME. So, between the two of us watching I feel confident. He also uses a crank truing stand w/bearings to balance.

Now, on to the important stuff. 6mm is not large enough to do the job they claim to do. It is barely larger than a bb(about .23"). BB's are a VERY bad idea(about .18") and 6mm plastic balls aren't much better. BB's are designed to PIERCE rubbery substances (flesh) and they do it very well when going fast enough. It breaks down to mass vs. surface area, and at high enough speeds both plastic and steel bb's WILL sink into rubber making it effectively thinner--the last thing you want at 150 mph. they will return to normal rolling status as soom as centrifugal force will allow.-if the ribs in the tire aren't too tall to roll over-
The scariest thing is that nobody but cyber can see in their head what happens when you put loose weight inside of a spinning structure -- it turns into a DYNAMIC balance. ask guys who balance helicopter blades. Putting powder in a big rig tire works b/c it's not turning fast enough to force all of the mass against the inner tire. The beads/bb's work in a motorcycle tire the same way when your under say...75 mph. But lets discuss what happens when things go wrong--
hypothetical situation:a rear tire has say .10 oz of imbalance that is normally corrected by a .10 oz weight glued to the rim, but tires have smaller imbalances at other locations, but are too small to correct at a dead stop, or even at the 50 or so mph that computer balancers spin at. Now sub in 2 oz of beads for the sticky weight. As the tire tries to vibrate with .10 oz of weight x a certain speed, it has to contend with 2 oz. of beads x the same speed resisting that movement- thats why beads work up to a certain speed-EVEN BETTER THAN WEIGHTS. What speed? depends on diameter of your tire and density of beads.
IF YOU GO TOO FAST, THE TIRE WILL BEGIN TO SHAKE AND IN A SPLIT SECOND ALL OF THE BEADS,BB'S, POWDER, OR WHATEVER WILL GO TO THE LOW SPOT AND YOUR TIRE WILL FAIL.
by the time you realize you have a shake starting, you're toast.
want proof? try putting too much slime in a car tire and take it down the road and speed up until vibration happens--comes in suddenly, huh?

[chris216]

I would never put them on my bike personally. I have had multiple customers come to me to rebalance their car rims because somebody locally decided to sell them on the whole bb/powder balanceing idea and take a boat load of their money only for it to not work in the wheels. I'll stick with the tried and stick weights on the rim for mine.

[BareKat]

donno ... worked on my Kat...

[thetable]

There are 2 things that I am desperately trying to understand

Not sure what you're on about, but seriously you're off. Don't even want to get frustrated tearing it apart piece by piece. So just enjoy your suing.

I've used dynabeads, and tested to, well, excess speeds on multiple tires and bikes with no problems. I mount my own tires, and it is easier for me to just throw dynabeads in there and be done with it as opposed to static balancing which takes longer and requires more attention.

My tip for the day, if you're mounting your own tires, use a cap from a spray can to capture and recycle the beads in the next tire.

[Astro4x4]

Dyna beads here too. Bike smooth as silk and no problems at all.

[Kreylyn]

There are 2 things that I am desperately trying to understand -- You pay HOW MUCH for a tire mount? I pay $8 a tire if I pull it myself; and also my changer knows I'll never sue him so long as he does a decent job and I WATCH EVERY TIRE, EVERY TIME. So, between the two of us watching I feel confident. He also uses a crank truing stand w/bearings to balance.

Now, on to the important stuff. 6mm is not large enough to do the job they claim to do. It is barely larger than a bb(about .23"). BB's are a VERY bad idea(about .18") and 6mm plastic balls aren't much better. BB's are designed to PIERCE rubbery substances (flesh) and they do it very well when going fast enough. It breaks down to mass vs. surface area, and at high enough speeds both plastic and steel bb's WILL sink into rubber making it effectively thinner--the last thing you want at 150 mph. they will return to normal rolling status as soom as centrifugal force will allow.-if the ribs in the tire aren't too tall to roll over-
The scariest thing is that nobody but cyber can see in their head what happens when you put loose weight inside of a spinning structure -- it turns into a DYNAMIC balance. ask guys who balance helicopter blades. Putting powder in a big rig tire works b/c it's not turning fast enough to force all of the mass against the inner tire. The beads/bb's work in a motorcycle tire the same way when your under say...75 mph. But lets discuss what happens when things go wrong--
hypothetical situation:a rear tire has say .10 oz of imbalance that is normally corrected by a .10 oz weight glued to the rim, but tires have smaller imbalances at other locations, but are too small to correct at a dead stop, or even at the 50 or so mph that computer balancers spin at. Now sub in 2 oz of beads for the sticky weight. As the tire tries to vibrate with .10 oz of weight x a certain speed, it has to contend with 2 oz. of beads x the same speed resisting that movement- thats why beads work up to a certain speed-EVEN BETTER THAN WEIGHTS. What speed? depends on diameter of your tire and density of beads.
IF YOU GO TOO FAST, THE TIRE WILL BEGIN TO SHAKE AND IN A SPLIT SECOND ALL OF THE BEADS,BB'S, POWDER, OR WHATEVER WILL GO TO THE LOW SPOT AND YOUR TIRE WILL FAIL.
by the time you realize you have a shake starting, you're toast.
want proof? try putting too much slime in a car tire and take it down the road and speed up until vibration happens--comes in suddenly, huh?

Wow... There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start... and I'm having a very hard time responding seriously.

I'm glad you got a special relationship with your "changer" to get such a great deal. The avg medium price for a tire change is .5+ hours work for a garages hourly rate. Being as the hourly rate is avg around $75-$85 an hour... it's not uncommon for the tire change to be in the $30 range per tire. Again, kudos to you for finding a great deal... but that doesn't mean it's available to everyone, everywhere.

BBs aren't "designed" to pierce "flesh"... pointy or sharp things do that much better than rounded blunt things. BBs are designed to be quick easy mass produced items. Special designed pellets are generally used for improved accuracy and penetration if one was to look at air powered hunting as the tool of choice.

Rubber is very resilient, and either requires a significant amount of force (so, not BBs with very little mass behind them) to penetrate it, or a huge difference in velocity (BBs are matching the rotation of the wheel, not fighting against it), and your hypothesis assumes the material "bounces" all around inside, and is totally off there. The centrifugal force inside isn't going to allow for much of any "bounce" at speed. The BBs will match the travel of the inner surface due to that centrifugal force... essentially once the wheel is spinning, they won't ever leave the surface of the inside wall of the tire. If the tire surface is compressed... the bb will move with it... to the max point and when the tire moves back to it's normal position all the time keeping contact with the inner wall... the bb is going to be right there with it. NOT suddenly a loose projectile of massive differences in speed.

Your observation that at some point all these are going to bunch up at one spot and suddenly start working exactly opposite of what they normally do is... well... fantastical at best, insane at worst. It matters little if there is more weight than specifically needed to balance the tire, as it doesn't have to compensate for the difference.... it naturally spreads all around the tire inside. They naturally work to counter balance not only the tire... but themselves as well... at all speeds.

It's the whole basis behind why/how they work.

Saying that they will all bunch together just because of a specific speed ignores the entire concept of several fields of science. To suggest that the possibility of the BBs suddenly becoming sentient and moving against the forces being applied towards them is preposterous and better served in children's tales at night.

Then you imply the reactions of individualized round masses will move and react the same as a liquid that has a high viscosity. This is obviously just making stuff up at this point, as BBs and slime are going to respond significantly different... For one... in how quickly they adjust to the changing in balance. For two... high viscosity liquids like slime inherently resist flow. This is why slime stops leaks... it WON'T move quickly out the hole, thus preventing air from being able too.

Simply put… your assumptions and explanations have no basis in reality and science. Perhaps you should consider politics as a “field” of choice.

*** Before you click the reply button in a great emotional state… please be aware the majority of this was posted tongue in cheek. A bit of humor sprinkled in as you will. It’s not meant to be insulting to you personally, but alas… I can’t stop you from taking it that way. Just stating it isn’t meant to. ***

Krey

[hardlydangerous]

Just do it the proper way people
Dyna beads are a gimmick just as all centramatic style (dynamic) balancer set ups. They are not a new thing, these ides have been used for decades on big trucks. They were not very popular or recommended by ANY tire mfg because static balancing is WAY more accurate and smoother. at slow speed and high speeds.

In order for dynamic balancing to work your tire must be WAY out of balance and accelerated slowly to allow the median to move around.
Centramatic balancing works to a degree but it is not as accurate as static balancing. Thats a fact.
5 minutes with a static balancer will have your tire balanced far better then any centralmatic style or dynamic balancer set up. and any bike owner with out a rear stand can make or buy a static balancer and do it yourself. its extremely simple and costs less then the less effective dyna beads or even BB's

Watch any video on centamatic or dynamic balancing (they all work the exact same way) and you will see the slow violent shaking of the wheel as it accelerates and then starts to smoothen out... I have looked for MONTHS for a similar video and even requested one from Innovative balancing on the dynabeads in action on a spinning tire...
All this reseach and they wont put up a video of a tire on their balancers... wonder why?
so what happens if you riding in slow traffic, is it balanced? nope
but at speeds is it perfect? HELL NO
Build your own machine and text it. put any small phnumatic tire on a 1/2 HP electric moror and play with a few different ideas for dynamic balancing VS static balancing.
here is a PERFECT example
Watch but more importantly LISTEN to this video and you will notice the unbalance tire with no weight runs just as smooth or quieter then a bead balanced tire.
remember LISTEN for vibrations.....
and remember putting the weight farther out on the tire only makes it worse.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ullnFQD4F1I&feature=related[/ame]

[JHONNY_ICE_420]

forgive me, fellas I'm just some idiot redneck that only had this happen to me personally, thank god it wasn't on 2 wheels.
forgive my lack of ability to put my thoughts into words, I just can't type anywhere near the speed that I think or speak.
I would agree with hardley for the most part, but krey: I like you, I thing you're very knowledgable, but you're dead wrong on the balance theroy.
If you've ever tried to balance something for extreme rpm, you would understand.
Just put a cd on a motor from a toy car and apply 12 volts or so, (at your own risk)
If you hold the motor in your hand, you can feel imbalances coming in and going away depending on the speed of the disk, and just before the disk shatters it will vibrate VIOLENTLY. Usually, it will feel almost perfectly balanced right before it crosses the "speed threshold" This is the dynamic balance I am talking about. I could give you hard numbers, but I don't have 8 hours and 30 ft of blackboard to write equations on.
So, I must apologize for opening my ignorant, unexperienced mouth

[Kreylyn]

forgive me, fellas I'm just some idiot redneck that only had this happen to me personally, thank god it wasn't on 2 wheels.
forgive my lack of ability to put my thoughts into words, I just can't type anywhere near the speed that I think or speak.
I would agree with hardley for the most part, but krey: I like you, I thing you're very knowledgable, but you're dead wrong on the balance theroy.
If you've ever tried to balance something for extreme rpm, you would understand.
Just put a cd on a motor from a toy car and apply 12 volts or so, (at your own risk)
If you hold the motor in your hand, you can feel imbalances coming in and going away depending on the speed of the disk, and just before the disk shatters it will vibrate VIOLENTLY. Usually, it will feel almost perfectly balanced right before it crosses the "speed threshold" This is the dynamic balance I am talking about. I could give you hard numbers, but I don't have 8 hours and 30 ft of blackboard to write equations on.
So, I must apologize for opening my ignorant, unexperienced mouth

I can accept (not that you need my acceptance... ) that your intent and experiances have shown you that they are not the perfect answer. I agree with alot of what Hardley posted as well. I don't think they are the perfect answer as well.

My response to your post was 90% toungue in cheek, 10% concern because the physics behind it wasn't explained very well. I ask for you to pardon me, as sometimes I like to "verbally spar" in a light hearted way... I really don't mean anything by it personally.

I do have to say one thing I don't agree with about the comment on static balancing. While it certainly may be possible to get it that close, practical application in the field is definately not that precise. I've had way too many experiances with garages putting tires on cars/bikes that certainly could have been balanced better.

Gimmick or not, I can definately see the desire to not want to rely on someone else's work if "natural forces" can be made to work for you.

Ultimately, we have alot of anecdotal evidence both ways... they work great, they don't work very well at all.... There are pros and cons to each. I guess each person needs to choose what they feel works best for them. I do think if there was a serious safty issue with the use of the beads, there would be alot more information out there saying so. Give me 50 people that like something, 1 of them will tell me about it. Give me 50 people who don't like something, and 75 people will tell me about it.

Just my thoughts on the matter though.

Krey

[994runnerNC]

My only experience with Dyna Beads is with off road trucks.

For my truck, they are great. The tires are so heavy that it takes tons of sticky weights to balance a heavy 35"+ mud tire. Add in the fact that these sticky weights get ripped off within 10 minutes of taking them offroad (in my case), and I would have unbalanced tires all the time.

I realize this is not transferable to motorcycles (speed, acceleration, tire size or weight), but for some applications, these are magic. In my experience, I have only felt the tires "not balanced" a.k.a. when the beads are moving around under 15 MPH.

[paul.miner]

@hardlydangerous One thing that bothers me about that video is that the strobe is misleading. Everytime the strobe flashes, everything appears to be in the same place, and they imply this means it's stable. But really it just means it's consistent; you could probably strobe an unbalanced tire and it would appear steady because the deflection is the same every time it rotates to that spot.

I've been thinking about why how a wheel imbalance feels varies with speed, and I have some ideas I'd like to hear feedback on. I think that the direction a wheel deflects can lag the position of the imbalance, and that this varies by speed. At slower speeds, the position of the imbalance may match the deflection of the wheel. But at higher speeds, the deflection may lag the imbalance.



I would think it would have to in order for any of these bead/powder methods to work, because if the tire was always deflected in the direction of the imbalance, that point would always be the furthest from the center of rotation, which would always experience the most centrifugal force (yes it's not a real force but still), and anything in the tire would gravitate to that spot, making the imbalance worse.

If at higher speeds the deflection started lagging the imbalance (possibly even 180 degrees), then the part of the wheel furthest from the center of rotation and experiencing the most centrifugal force would be on the opposite side of the wheel from the imbalance, and beads/powder in the tire would gravitate there.

Thoughts?

[thetable]

Paul, you are forgetting that a motorcycle wheel, for all intents and purposes is restrained to one degree of freedom. It can only go up or down. This is what keeps the beads from settling in the heaviest part of the wheel assembly.

And for whomever mentioned Slime, it's viscosity is too high to allow it move fast enough to end up where it should be.

[paul.miner]

Paul, you are forgetting that a motorcycle wheel, for all intents and purposes is restrained to one degree of freedom. It can only go up or down. This is what keeps the beads from settling in the heaviest part of the wheel assembly.

I mentioned the one degree of freedom thing in the end of the blurb in the image, but I don't see how your conclusion follows from this. This too seems like something where the effect would vary significantly depending on speed, how free the beads are to move, etc. It seems to me that a deflection that is constantly changing in amplitude (such as with a suspension system) would serve to "shake" the contents of the tire, which is helpful in getting them into a more balanced position.

Can you explain more?

[Kreylyn]

...It seems to me that a deflection that is constantly changing in amplitude (such as with a suspension system) would serve to "shake" the contents of the tire, which is helpful in getting them into a more balanced position.

Can you explain more?

This was mentioned earlier, and don't believe it's correct. When in motion, the centrifigul force will push the contents against the inside of the tire. The centrifigul force will exceed any forces of deflection from the suspension, thus no "shaking" around... they will remain against the inner surface of the tire.

Krey