[ThAzKat]

I do have to add that I am so happy to see Porche step up and build one SWEET engine for the V-Rod.

Yeah, but that's Porsche...
Does that mean the engineering talent isn't in-house at HD? Why not -- surely they can afford it, can't they?

Snickering...
=-= The CyberPoet

Yes they can for now and did you notice that the V-rod is cheaper than any of the Big twins. I don't care what bike that engine is in, It is an AWESOME engine. I have Dynoed one and tricked the ECU into letting the rev limiter take the engine up to 13,000 rpm. There was no loss of power and could rev that high all day. HD didn't want it to rev that high for reliability reasons, is what they said, It is a Porche design! I like the fact that they use the same valve train design as the Duc.

[KatanaO215]

its still funny that Harley needed to have Prsche design them a high performance engine. Is that really an American product?

[tdrcomm]

As an design communications guy I love the Harley story. Every company I know, while they might not appreciate the product (us included), salivates over the Harley brand and what they've done with it. The "mystique" sells. But the four things that makes HD such a cash cow now are the things that will bury it in ten years unless they start to make changes in what they do and what they make.

They're demographics are a lot older and have more disposable income than the typical sportsbiker. As HD riders age, there is not another bike for them to migrate to. The "mystique" factor that makes a HD so lusted after will be lost on the accountant or lawyer who is now pushing 60 and no longer wants his dentures vibrating out of his mouth. There is no comfortable touring alternative in the HD stable. We laugh at Goldwing owners but technically they are excellent bikes for what they do. Those HD buyers bought for status and will just stop riding once the last bugs are brushed from his teeth and the coolness wears off.

HD's are becoming rolling works of art, thanks to American Chopper and Jesse James (and most of them aren't Harleys, anyway). I personally like the work, but they're fast becoming like low riders and hot rods.... auto and bike shows. Those people don't want new, they want older bikes they can customize. Remember, the first place a new HD rider visits after he/she drives off the lot is not the nearest bar but the nearest custom shop for more chrome.

HD may have sales figures that best the foreign bikes, but look at the new rider trend: New riders are not buying HD. Sports and traditional bikes are the first choice. Nobody is going to fork over $20 grand for a first bike. The loyalty-factor only works when you grab the consumer when they're young, or the consumer aspires to move up to a product that has superior value and quality. Coming off of a sportsbike, riders don't feel that in HD. Plus, the entry-level HD is around $6k. For six grand I can think of a handful of sport/standard bikes that give more value for the buck in performance and reliability. Heck, you can get a '02 VFR, Gix or R6 for that amount. And Buell is not the savior it was thought to be.

HD doesn't want to alienate their core demographics by building bikes with newer technology. The V-Rod is one hell of a bike, but sales are terrible compared to the latest FatBoy iteration. They are looking too closely at the short-term rather than the long-term. Cadillac almost waited too late but saw the error of their ways. Surpassed by Mercedes and recently Lexus and BMW in technology, ride and style, they knew they had to get younger. Younger buyers are much more tech savvy and look for that in their cars, and it's going to happen to bikes, too. Consumers gain more disposable income as they get older, and this new generation is weened on iPods, computers and digital TV. Settling for 25 year old technology won't do it for them anymore no matter what the "mystique" says.

I like what HD has done to bring back the company. I would like them even more if I saw a remote chance that they are changing. If they would have bought the Indian name plate or Aprilla when they had the chance I would have been overjoyed. AND IF they had opened up that fat wallet of theirs and given a blank check to the Britten boys and left them alone for a couple of years I would be trading in my Busa for the first HD/Britten off the line.

[Meikol2]

Well said.

My Father-in-law, just forked over $20k + for a top of the line touring Harley. I was amazed at how old this brand new bike looked. The only new tech, was the air ride rear suspension, the radio and the "true" cruise control. The rest looked 20 years old. He's happy though, because it is a Harley. The rest doesn't matter.

[blkpitbull]

no

[ThAzKat]

Meikol, it doesn't matter to most ole school HD guys. That is why harley's are still around. They have a huge traditional following.

Yes, it is funny that they had to go out of house to get true performance. Having worked on many HD's, they are no more American than anyother vehicle out there. wiring is from mexico, Connectors are exactly what everyone else uses. There are a couple of things they do have going for them as far as the Big twin goes. The battery is the most powerfull one in the motorcycle market and the engine design did change in 1999-2000 to the twin cam. It is a complete design change, the only thing that is the same as the Evolution engine is the 45 degree V. It is so ironic that the hog boyz love harley for the tradition but yet the custom HD is such a hot market. Again as a Technician, I make good money working on them. I prefer the challenge of working on imports or what they call rice burners.


The biggest thing about the Crotch rocket title is, Aren't they are really Crotch rockets.

[The CyberPoet]

I like the fact that they use the same valve train design as the Duc.

I'm not too familiar with the insides of the V-Rod engine -- does this mean that it uses cams to both open and close the valves (rather than springs to close)? Does it use belt-driven-OH-cam, chain-driven-OH-cam or pushrods to activate those valves?

I also wonder if these means that it will have the same tendency to tear itself up like Duc motors do if you skimp on the valve adjustments?

Curious now...
=-= The CyberPoet

[masrapido]

hahah, we havent this problem in Spain. The Harley crew is tiny next to the sportbike crew, so people always realize that if you ride a bike, it must be a sport bike.

Let me ask, what does a Harley Davidson V-Rod go for over there? What is the total cost with import tax and shipping?

I am thinking it would be price effective to buy a "crotch rocket" or what some people call "Caffe Racer"

VRSCA V-Rod costs 22450 euros (29080$)... yeah, a Aprilia RSV 1000R Factory is cheaper, a Ducati 999 S is a bit cheapest (not too much), a Benelli Tornado is cheaper too, so...

[Black_peter]

Thazkat , Tradition. I hear you, but look at Ducati. They still make Desmo 90 degree twins..
Yet they have been able to raise the bar..
I thought HD was going places when the VR1000
came out. Boy was I wrong..
I was looking at a newer HD just 2 hours ago
It looks like is was put together by a balcksmith.

Whatever, way off topic. I still wave the the goons anyway..

[ThAzKat]

Cyber, if you are interested, I can send you the chain driven Desmo, twin cams that have no lifters. The cams rest on top of the valves, a shim under bucket setup.

Masrapido, interesting, the V-rod goes for about $18,000 american. I don't know how that breaks down there.

Black Peter, so did everyone else but HD lost alot of money trying to keep it together for racing. The power train was super weak. The Buell is the best example of the sportster engine.
Whether they wave back or not, you better believe that. I wave to others to show the sport unity and if they don't have any faith then Oh well.

[WildKat]

Thazkat , Tradition. I hear you, but look at Ducati. They still make Desmo 90 degree twins..
Yet they have been able to raise the bar..
I thought HD was going places when the VR1000
came out. Boy was I wrong..
I was looking at a newer HD just 2 hours ago
It looks like is was put together by a balcksmith.

Whatever, way off topic. I still wave the the goons anyway..

arent most of them ?

[Batgirl]

Someone called my bike a rice rocket but I don't think I've ever gotten crotch rocket...I guess its meant more for guys for some reason...I don't really know what the reason is

Does it ever get to you, to the point you wanna start and beat some sense into them? or do u just let it roll off your back ?

I like when "they" ask, "OMG why do you wear all that gear in this hot weather?" (during the summer of course)

I just pull out some high grade sand paper and rub it numerous times on their face that usually does the trick.

[BraadaJim]

I don't care what anyone calls my bike. It's a Katana and it's mine. Heck, I call it a crotch rocket, that's exactly what it is!

I freely admit that as sportbikes go the Kats are sorely lacking in the "Modern Technology" department and most of the high end serious sportbike riders (and the posers too) make fun of it so I can't really say anything about the HD guys.

Fortunately I ride bikes for me. To feel free and to clear my head. I am building my bike as a custom one of a kind for me. I could care less if anyone else likes it when it's done. It is my "art" and my expression.

If someone obviously has no clue about bikes, they merly show their ignorance of the subject by using stereotypes.
If someone is into bikes but is so shallow that they cannot look past a brand or style to see a fellow member of the 2-wheeled community, then they also show their ignorance by using stereotypes.

In either case they are barely worthy of my attention, let alone my emotions.

[ThAzKat]

KatGirl that is the best. I like seeing women riding their own bikes. I don't mind having a Women(my wife) on the back. I have seen women racers that kick butt you will be happy to know but there isn't a team sponsor out there that will sponsor a Women.


Well put BraadaJim!!!!!!

[The CyberPoet]

...but there isn't a team sponsor out there that will sponsor a Women.

ThazKat, yes there is... Aprilia among others...
See: http://www.katja-poensgen.de/engl/index2.html

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet