Noises trying to go into second gear ....

[BOILERMAKER]

I recently bought a 1994 suzuki katana gsx 600 mostly to use in my yerf dog go cart father son project. Im putting the motor brakes etc. on the cart. All other gears work pretty good but it wont let you upshift into second gear, it makes a mean racket trying to get into the gear then it bumps back into neutral. Wierd thing is it does downshift fine. Any ideas? Im thinking the shift forks bent but not really sure just wanted to see what you guys think.

Like I said I bought this bike to use for my cart project so I will most likely have some parts to post up, rims, plastics etc. I do have a 08 r6s that I ride when I have the time.

[Kfreak]

Common problem in the Kat's. I know if I don't really shift a little harder into second I miss the gear. My problem may be due to age. I'm gonna let this one up to the tranny masters.

[The CyberPoet]

It's the shift fork being bent, along with 2nd and 6th gear teeth being worn. All new OEM parts for those repairs is about $220-$270 (depending on source), but it's a ton of hours to disassemble the cases to get at the tranny.

Cause is abusive shifting habits; 2nd gear is a "fixed" gear on the shaft from what Suzuki has said, which means 6th goes in to engage it, and when it goes bad, 6th doesn't grab 2nd, bounces away (gear teeth dancing) and slams against the shift-fork, wearing away the edge of the shift-fork and bending it slightly, before 6th tries to slide back into place with 2nd.

Most owners choose to swap engine/tranny combo as a whole unit (with a known-good unit) instead of doing the very manually-intensive tear down.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[HemiKat]

Most owners choose to swap engine/tranny combo as a whole unit (with a known-good unit) instead of doing the very manually-intensive tear down.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

As much as everyone complains about cracking the case being labor intensive and so difficult, I just did mine and didnt think it was that bad. The hardest part is finding all the hidden bolds. Ive never had a Kat motor apart before. Took me 1 hr to remove motor, and 1 more hour to dissassemble and split case. Im waiting on parts right now so I havent got it back together but Im expecting 2 more hours for reassembly and installation.

[Shifty]

So how exactly am I supposed to shift in order to avoid this issue?

[HemiKat]

So how exactly am I supposed to shift in order to avoid this issue?

For starters, use your clutch. (Not saying you dont, I just know some dont.)

[BOILERMAKER]

Thanks alot for the speedy responses. I guess im going to have to make some decisions on where to go next with this one. Hemikat please update the post when you get yours back together so I can have a idea on how it went back together.

[SilentTJ]

i always make sure to keep the rpm's low for first and 2nd. i usually shift to 2nd around 4k rpm, and shift to 3rd around 5k or sooner. once in 3rd i really open it up. and when down shifting i don't go into 2nd until i'm around 15mph or slower... and i use the clutch at all times.

[Pa Kat]

A friend of mine just told me about his having this problem and said I'd most likely see it soon as well. I'm really hoping I never do. I ALWAYS use my clutch, and RARELY tach out 1st, or 2nd...At the moment, it doesn't do much anyway.

-Mike-

[Kreylyn]

So how exactly am I supposed to shift in order to avoid this issue?

Simple fix, pick up a shift indent spring and instal (less than $50).

Or... when you do shift, make sure your rpms match the speed your going for the gear your shifting too... so blip the throttle if down shifting for example.

When you up shift, do so purposfully, dont' just press on it. (this is what the spring makes you do) This will help prevent mis shifts, one of the leading causes to 2nd gear issues.

Krey

[The CyberPoet]

Simple fix, pick up a shift indent spring and instal (less than $50).

$38.50 plus 1 lb shipping through me.
But note that it's a preventative, not a cure if it's already broke.



Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet
_____________________________________________
The Best Motorcycle Tire Valves in the World (Aluminum!), plus lots of general motorcycle help files & Katana (GSX600F / GSX750F) specific help files.
CyberPoet's KR-special deals' are here (click)

[Absyn-thesis]

Haven't heard of one of these before, CP. Is that a name I can google to get a better description? Any idea how difficult it is to install? I would like something to prevent damage to my tranny if I can talk my mechanic into installing it!

Cheers,

$38.50 plus 1 lb shipping through me.
But note that it's a preventative, not a cure if it's already broke.



Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet
_____________________________________________
The Best Motorcycle Tire Valves in the World (Aluminum!), plus lots of general motorcycle help files & Katana (GSX600F / GSX750F) specific help files.
CyberPoet's KR-special deals' are here (click)

[Anthrax85]

Bending a shift fork is common, especially with people who go WOT in first, then try and quickly as possible to shift. It's not hard at all to get to the trans, especially on an air cooled motor... since your already going to have the motor out for the swap, just take off the pan and split the case and you will be able to access the transmission. I'd suggest getting a manual for all the spacers and clips and such that go on the primary and secondary. Just make sure you check all 3 shift forks, the gear dogs (the teeth on the side of the gear that mesh with the other gears) for wear. if they are wore, you can take the gears to a machine shop to have them fix em up if they arent in horrible condition. When my old 1984 CB700SC had trans problems, same as yours, wouldn't shift into second it would just drop into neutral, the shift fork was bent, and had a little wear on the gears so I machined the gear dogs, and one new shift fork and that fixxed the problem. Just make sure you check everything!! Oh and check the shift shaft and drum also!! good luck, it's not hard!

[The CyberPoet]

Haven't heard of one of these before, CP. Is that a name I can google to get a better description?

I'll go you one better. I wrote up a massive description for the KR Wiki a while back, including how it works, what it does, what's involved in the install, etc:

http://katriders.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Shift_Indent_kit

Replaces item #22 in this fiche file: LINK

Any idea how difficult it is to install? I would like something to prevent damage to my tranny if I can talk my mechanic into installing it!

Expect to pay 1 to 1.5 hours of shop time to install at a fair shop if done in conjunction with an oil change or 7500 mile service, 2+ hours of shop time at a not-so-fair dealership or if done without a service that includes an oil change anyway.

The biggest PIA factor is the c-clip for the retaining of the spring/pivot, and although the kit does NOT include a spare c-clip, I would personally recommend ordering a couple in advance (8mm circ-clip if you go generic, or Suzuki PN 08331-31086) if you do the job yourself or farm it out -- better to have a couple spares of the part most likely to get damaged/lost in the process, given they're under $1 each.

So how exactly am I supposed to shift in order to avoid this issue?

1. Use your clutch.

2. When you execute the shift with your foot, do it very quickly and hard, with a clear, decisive "snapping" action. Sequential transmissions do not reward slow shifting (there are no synchros to spin up).

3. When up-shifting, roll off the throttle momentarily while engaging the clutch, letting the RPM's drop a bit. You're generally shooting for an RPM-drop of about 1000 RPM. The further you're off that difference, the more slowly you should let out the clutch to compensate.

4. When down-shifting, blip the throttle (raise the RPM's, preferably by about 1000 RPM) as the clutch is coming in, so that the transmission input shaft's speed in the next lower gear will match the transmission output shaft's speed in that next lower gear. Again, the further you're off that RPM difference, the more slowly you should let out the clutch to compensate; let the clutch out too fast with too high an RPM-mismatch, and you could lose rear-wheel traction (rear wheel trying to move slower than the bike is).

5. Never downshift into 2nd while going at 15+ mph, unless you are particularly good at matching RPM's (better to let the bike get down to a walking pace and then shift it). Only practice will make perfect, and you can practice doing it as slowly as you want (visually studying the tach) as long as you make the foot-action still snapping-quick.

6. Never downshift into 1st while at anything above a walking pace, period.

Shifting/Gears
What is the correct procedure to Upshift in a lazy way? (RPM’s)
All shifts should be made with a very fast, hard snapping action [with your foot] with the clutch pulled in.
For best longevity, upshifts:
Clutch in, throttle off, snap-shift, throttle up a little, clutch out.
1st to 2nd - 5k RPM or below
2nd to 3rd - 6k RPM or below
anything above 3rd - wherever you want, just stick to the method above.

What is the correct procedure to Upshift in a hasty way?
Exactly the same as above, just faster in the actions.

What is the correct procedure to Downshift in a lazy way (rolling into a town, or to a stop sign behind a car)?
Clutch in, throttle up a little, snap-shift [with your foot], release throttle, clutch out.
Don't go back into 2nd or 1st above a walking (strolling) speed. Generally don't go into a gear that would put the bike above 4k while down-shifting as a newbie, and make sure you rev the engine to match the RPM's to the speed the bike will be at.

What is the correct procedure to Downshift in a hasty way?
Same as above, using brakes to shed speed at the same time and doing the process faster.

What is the correct gear to ride in through town (RPM level)?
Something above 4k and below 9k. In an ideal world, you want to be around 7200 RPM so you have maximum acceleration available on demand (the start of the main torque power-band). On the other hand, being at a lower RPM level will keep the rear wheel from wanting to spin out of control if you happen to hit a patch of slippery stuff right as you get on the gas.

What about clutch-less shifting?
It will let you, but as BraadaJim so elegantly put it: "Shifting without the clutch is like screwing a prostitute without a condom. Sure you can do it but bad things are gonna happen."
More Details here:

http://www.katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=58493

and

http://www.katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=57539

For more answers to common newbie questions, see CyberPoet's Q&A for Newbies thread

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[HemiKat]

CP I wasnt sure if I was going to buy one (Shift Kit) or not, but now you've got me sold, just have to wait for the funding. Probaly later next week.