[StevieB]

So, Marc, a quick skim of your last post suggest that any problems can be well addressed by a re-jet. Sorry, but I am still not seeing where older motorcycles would be made "obsolete" by the fuel mix change.

[hardlydangerous]

let me re-word this because you seem to be hung up on this one point

Well you need to re-jet not JUST becuse its lean but because alcohol does not provide the same energy/BTU that gasoline does.

Hell even you know if you change the OE air filter you need to re-jet.

With 20% gasohol your bike will suffer a very noticeable drop in performance, would it be lean?.. yes most likely. will it blow up the first ride... no. Will it be so lean that it will cause detoantion or over heating... ummmm not likely again it burns cooler, helps eliminate CC hot spots that can cause pre-ignition and has a higher resistance to detoantion as the alcohol level goes up. I don't know exactly without testing an extra 10% alcohol would be fatal to the engine... but I doubt it !

but like I said you can run a gasohol blend LEANER then you can striat gasoline because it resists detonation better. At 10% gasohol your engine will produce more hp then strait gas with the same tuning, because its slightly leaner, but that does not mean its so lean you need to rejet because the 10% gasohol even though the octane numbers are not a lot different still resist detonation better the strait gas. Most people can't tell the difference between "Gas and Gasohol because it is so small of a mixture change. will that extra 10% destroy the engine? again i doubt it.

I'm not sayin' your wrong with the info you provided... so don't take it that way.

how can I explain this....
Octane boosters.... most only bump up octane by 7 points. So in a 87 octane thats 87.7 octane. So why will is greatly resist detonation like a much higher octane fuel like 91-92 octane? because the chemicals in the booster neutralize or remove free radicals in the fuel that promote detonation. Alcohol works much the same way allowing you to run leaner, more timing, higher compression without damage.

Will 20% gasohol be too lean? . it might be... but like i said most bikes stock can use re-jetting anyway for best performance. think about it a bike in florida and a bike in Canada with air and weather differences can use much different jetting to run perfect yet they all come from the factory with the same jetting, its just a good base that will allow the bike to run decent in most typical situations.

So when every fuel station in the town you live in is forced to only sell 20% or higher gasohol you buy a jet kit. If you have to, seal the tank with POR15.

Its like mixing too much oil in a 2 stroke pre mix... if the engine is to tuned/jetted to run at 50:1 and you mix at 20:1 is it going to blow up the engine because its overly lean because there is less fuel per volume flowing through the same size jets... not likely
but if it was tuned/jetted for 100:1 and you mixed it at 20:1 then yes you will have an issue with the bike being overly lean.

But like I said they can not force a fuel that will destroy millions of fuel systems.
E-85 was to be this HUGE next fuel and be all the rage... everyone was going to be converting over bla bla bla 10+ years later we have what a handful of flex fuel and e-85 cars available... Why they cost so much to build and make them reliable...
Where do you even buy E-85? because we don't have it here and i've never seen it in buffalo where I travel.
I remember years ago when i was a kid the govnt talking about running out of oil and what we would do for alternative fuels and oil in the years 2000 + well here we are, no such shortage , not alternative fuels, no electric cars...

I still say its not gonna happen and if it does it won't be for a LONG time and if it does BUY a jet kit..

[StevieB]

Well, Marc, perhaps I AM hung up on one point- that being, your assersion that the changes will make older motorcycles obsolete. To my mind, "obsolete" means the item is no longer useful, and can not be made useful with the readily available materials. I'm just not seeing that- have I missed something?

[whitecl0ver]

Oh well, just another reason for me to use to convince the wife to let me buy my new bike!

now your thinkin bud!

[The CyberPoet]

Well, Marc, perhaps I AM hung up on one point- that being, your assersion that the changes will make older motorcycles obsolete. To my mind, "obsolete" means the item is no longer useful, and can not be made useful with the readily available materials. I'm just not seeing that- have I missed something?

It was an intentional bit of hyperbole in one sense; yes, you can readily rejet to compensate for the stoichiometric ratio. But in the other sense, in perfectly stock form (no rejetting), yes, the bike may become obsolete because it won't run reliably if at all. How many millions of bike owners are going to go out to their garages and suddenly find their bike doesn't work? What will happen at that moment? Seriously, think about it...

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

______________________
CyberPoet's KR Maint Supplies & Upgrade Specials
Suzuki Stratosphere - 6 Cylinders, the new Katana?
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[thetable]

The EPA is considering a new ruling to make mid-level ethanol fuels standard, as a part of the EISA 2007 (Energy Independence Security Act of 2007) that congress passed. Mid-level ethanol fuels would be E-12, E-15, E-20, E-25 and potentially even as high as E-40.

Where is this information coming from? In 15 minutes of Googleing, most of the information I come up with is from 2007, and most of that was talk of a request made for an exemption for Minnesota to go to a 20% ethanol blend. That is the closest thing I have seen on the AMA site as well.

In reading summaries EISA 2007, I see nothing other than stating proposed goals for bio fuel production for 2022.

I don't mind going nuts, but really, cite your sources.

As to worried about it, meh, aluminum tank, closed loop EFI that learns, I think the new bike will survive.

[ATOMonkey]

Gaskets and rubber o-rings don't like alcohol. It dries them out and they crack and stop sealing.

All of your gaskets and o-rings will have to be replaced with nitril counter-parts.

[StevieB]

Okay, Marc, seems like we have come to an understanding, you and I. And yes, it will cause mild pandemonium if lots of motorcycles are unridable almost overnight. I would think that word will get out well enough, given the similar scenario when lead was phased out of gasoline.

Thanks for your patience.

[The CyberPoet]

I don't mind going nuts, but really, cite your sources.

Sources:

Original Link that started me into the topic (not sure if you can access it without an subscription account):
http://www.powersportsbusiness.com/o...cfm?ID=1943227 (PowerSports Business Magazine online article)

which caused me to search for the originating filing to the EPA that spurred the story (signatories include Motorcycle Industry Assoc):
Letter_to_Administrator_Johnson_on_Mid-Level_Ethanol12-18-2008 (PDF)

and the EPA itself showing it is being looked into seriously:
Modlin's briefing on it - May '08 (PDF)

plus the DOE research on the topic (note:website info dated):

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/ethanol/blends_e15_e20_research.html

&

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/cleancities/toolbox/pdfs/iblends.pdf

I have no doubt you can find more if you dig (I did, but didn't bookmark or save the history trail, so the above are quick re-searching for some of the links).
TIP: Try using the google site-limiter feature (use the phrase site:.gov at the send of your search phrase in google to get only responses located on .gov websites).

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

______________________
CyberPoet's KR Maint Supplies & Upgrade Specials
Suzuki Stratosphere - 6 Cylinders, the new Katana?
The Best Motorcycle Metal Billet Tire Valves in the World, plus lots of motorcycle & Katana (GSX600F / GSX750F) specific help files.