[pete325is]

catching the guy in the act is not all its cracked up to be... and i speak from experience.. guy broke into my car.. i went out there.. beat the crap out of him.. but at a cost.. i got stabbed 6 times.. and got sent to the hospital, he got sent to prison.. the kicker... he got 9 months.. ya.. not worth it.. you get insurance for a reason..




.

[erok011]

here in FL we are allowed to shoot anyone who we feel is threatening us, Thanks Jeb!

[Phantom Kat]

here in FL we are allowed to shoot anyone who we feel is threatening us, Thanks Jeb!

Most places it's more sophisticated than "I felt threatened" ... the three criteria (in general) for using deadly force is: 1. The Threat, 2. The Ability, and 3. The Opportunity. If you can prove those three criteria are met you're justified.

[The CyberPoet]

Most places it's more sophisticated than "I felt threatened" ... the three criteria (in general) for using deadly force is: 1. The Threat, 2. The Ability, and 3. The Opportunity. If you can prove those three criteria are met you're justified.

The criteria in Florida (and I believe Texas now as well) are different than they used to be -- in certain circumstances, such as in your home or car, uninvited entry qualifies the uninvited party on all three counts: it is *presumed* under the law that you felt threatened with deadly force (and you do not have to justify it after the fact).

The actual statute is here:
Justifiable Use of Force, Use of Deadly Force

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

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[Zepp]

It makes me angry too. There is a real lack of respect for people and their belongings nowadays.

[albuKat]

The criteria in Florida (and I believe Texas now as well) are different than they used to be -- in certain circumstances, such as in your home or car, uninvited entry qualifies the uninvited party on all three counts: it is *presumed* under the law that you felt threatened with deadly force (and you do not have to justify it after the fact).

I think we can still string 'em up from the old oak tree for theft in Texas. Oh wait, would stealing a bike be the same as a horse thief?

[Phoenix]

I think we can still string 'em up from the old oak tree for theft in Texas. Oh wait, would stealing a bike be the same as a horse thief?

I like how you think...

I would laugh @ someone trying to steal my bike. If they can pick her up they can have her. Then again I would probably get suied for their hernieas for trying to lift it.

[Phantom Kat]

The criteria in Florida (and I believe Texas now as well) are different than they used to be -- in certain circumstances, such as in your home or car, uninvited entry qualifies the uninvited party on all three counts: it is *presumed* under the law that you felt threatened with deadly force (and you do not have to justify it after the fact).

The actual statute is here:
Justifiable Use of Force, Use of Deadly Force

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

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The caveat is:

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

So someone breaking into your house doesn't qualify as a justified reason for using deadly force unless you can prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the person is intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence. If someone's breaking into your house just to steal your radio you cannot use deadly force. I say beyond reasonable doubt because you'll be answering to a jury if law enforcement can establish probable cause.

[The CyberPoet]

The caveat is:

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

So someone breaking into your house doesn't qualify as a justified reason for using deadly force unless you can prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the person is intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence. If someone's breaking into your house just to steal your radio you cannot use deadly force. I say beyond reasonable doubt because you'll be answering to a jury if law enforcement can establish probable cause.

The phrase "presumed" is the key factor here that you overlooked -- it is presumed by the law (and that extends to all parties involved, including the courts, the police, the home owner, any grand juries, from a legal stand-point) that the act of forceable illegal entry qualifies as a dire threat justifying use of lethal force, no matter what their purpose in forcing entry.

In other words, by the way this law is written, they have defined the act of breaking and entering in itself (while you are legally in-residence in a car/motorcycle/tent/trailer/RV/home) as being sufficient basis of threat onto you to make you fear for your life or well-being to the degree that lethal force is justifiable without further contemplation against adults -- and you do NOT have to subsequently justify that use to *anyone* including a grand jury (see FL Statute 776.012(2) and 776.013(4)).

Suggest you reread the statute for all the details

The only real questions left under the law for the courts to decide is a question of boundaries in certain situations:
Does climbing or bridging a fence or wall in order to gain access to property constitute unlawful forced entry?
At what point is someone trying to get onto a motorcycle unlawful forced entry (when they straddle it?)?
Is using an unlocked door a forceable entry, because doors do not open on their own?

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

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[albuKat]

Then again I would probably get suied for their hernieas for trying to lift it.

No joke. There is no true justice these days... too easy to bend the rules.

The phrase "presumed" is the key factor here that you overlooked -- it is presumed by the law (and that extends to all parties involved, including the courts, the police, the home owner, any grand juries, from a legal stand-point) that the act of forceable illegal entry qualifies as a dire threat justifying use of lethal force, no matter what their purpose in forcing entry.

So, if someone were sly enough, they could work the system and invite someone they didn't like to their home, stage a forced entry, and kill them free from fear of legal action since there were only two witnesses, and one of them cannot tell their story because they are dead.

Then again.. theres those darn CSI guys.... they always get the story right. lol

[The CyberPoet]

So, if someone were sly enough, they could work they system and invite someone they didn't like to their home, stage a forced entry, and kill them free from fear of legal action since there were only two witnesses, and one of them cannot tell their story because they are dead.

In theory, yes.
In reality, there would still be a police investigation at minimum (complete with state-level review, as is required in all homicide cases), and I would suppose if you two had any dealings that were a matter of record anywhere (shared credit card receipts at the same location/date, emails, telephone calls between your numbers & theirs, friends in common, neighbors who have seen him invited into your home previously), the investigation would likely expose that and you would be snagged. The CSI boys & girls will also have their hey-day.

The number of justifiable homicides in Florida has started rising very rapidly (33 in 2006, 103 in 2007, and that last number is expected to triple again for 2008). But those numbers are still miniscule in relationship to the size of the population (over 18 Million as of 2006 according to state estimates).

Only time will tell if the change in laws pushes down burglaries and car-jackings, or if it will cause an increase in the number of criminals who are apt to be armed when the commit such crimes (or both).

Now, all this said, I was a victim back in '91 of a literally-acid-crazy lunatic kicking my front door clean out of it's frame and storming in... My neighbor yelling at that very instant "Don't shoot, my kids are out here!" literally saved his life. I'll spare you the rest of the story, as it's here at KR already somewhere...
Needless to say, if my door ever flies out of the frame again, the person kicking it in will be a blood spot I have to get out of the carpet...

=-= The CyberPoet

[Phantom Kat]

The phrase "presumed" is the key factor here that you overlooked -- it is presumed by the law (and that extends to all parties involved, including the courts, the police, the home owner, any grand juries, from a legal stand-point) that the act of forceable illegal entry qualifies as a dire threat justifying use of lethal force, no matter what their purpose in forcing entry.

In other words, by the way this law is written, they have defined the act of breaking and entering in itself (while you are legally in-residence in a car/motorcycle/tent/trailer/RV/home) as being sufficient basis of threat onto you to make you fear for your life or well-being to the degree that lethal force is justifiable without further contemplation against adults -- and you do NOT have to subsequently justify that use to *anyone* including a grand jury (see FL Statute 776.012(2) and 776.013(4)).

Suggest you reread the statute for all the details

The only real questions left under the law for the courts to decide is a question of boundaries in certain situations:
Does climbing or bridging a fence or wall in order to gain access to property constitute unlawful forced entry?
At what point is someone trying to get onto a motorcycle unlawful forced entry (when they straddle it?)?
Is using an unlocked door a forceable entry, because doors do not open on their own?

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

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Suzuki Stratosphere - 6 Cylinders, the new Katana?
The Best Motorcycle Metal Billet Tire Valves in the World, plus lots of motorcycle & Katana (GSX600F / GSX750F) specific help files.

I read the statute and I read between the lines as well. Using "Presumed" as your safety net is a dangerous game. You go ahead and shoot someone and let us know how that turns out for you because there is no place in this country that liberal not even Florida. If the police have probable cause to think it was premeditated or an unjust use of deadly force, they will press charges and you'll be trying to convince a jury that the person was presumedly there doing an illegal act that involved violence.

Needless to say, if my door ever flies out of the frame again, the person kicking it in will be a blood spot I have to get out of the carpet...

=-= The CyberPoet

They have hazmat teams for that

Honestly, I'm with you 100%, if someone illegally enters my place of residence I will risk the consequences of using my .357 to save my kids and me. However, I know as well that there is a set of criteria that have to be met to justify the use of deadly force and it's more than just entering illegally in any state.

So, if someone were sly enough, they could work the system and invite someone they didn't like to their home, stage a forced entry, and kill them free from fear of legal action since there were only two witnesses, and one of them cannot tell their story because they are dead.

Unfortunately there's also still civl court

[The CyberPoet]

I read the statute and I read between the lines as well. Using "Presumed" as your safety net is a dangerous game. You go ahead and shoot someone and let us know how that turns out for you because there is no place in this country that liberal not even Florida. If the police have probable cause to think it was premeditated or an unjust use of deadly force, they will press charges and you'll be trying to convince a jury that the person was presumedly there doing an illegal act that involved violence.

I agree that if there is any indication of pre-meditation, you'll be hung out to dry. Ditto violating the exception clauses (such as police officers in the line of duty, provided both announce themselves first, or landlords, etc.). But as the rulings here have repeatedly shown, if there is no indication of premeditation AND not one of the exceptions clauses, it's done and over with as soon as the local investigation comes to it's conclusion & gets reviewed by the state oversight authority (FDLE). They don't even convene a grand jury for it (we discussed this when I was a grand jury nominee).

In a sense, it's the wild-wild west meets the ultimate castle doctrine.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

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[JAKE]

Last week a guy who lives in a city next to mine, (I believe it was Duncanville) caught a thief in his truck stealing his radio. The owner shot him four or five times with a 9mm then called the police.

No charges.

Jake