[DemonSeed]

I would feel guilty only if I knew the guy/girl was inexperienced and I drove to aggressively. Inexperienced riders look to the leader for what is right and wrong....like it or not....if you drive fast...they will drive fast...and most likely beyond their means to control.

[tifosi]

Maybe>>>>>

just a thought...but I think the track might be a better place to let it all 'hang out' instead of the streets.......at least you know a semi won't be comin around the next bend!!!

[WildKat]

Re: Correct me if I am wrong.......

but I do believe that in the riding training manual, they tell you that if your going to be riding in a group, you should have the experienced guys at the front and at the back with the newbies making up the middle, that way if something would happen to the new guys, someone would be there to help, instead of having to wait for the pack to come back and find them.

Exactly ! Have a sweeper just in case , but take turns so the same person won't HAVE to ride slow all day , if necessary .

Ive always been leary of news in the middle.. slows down the pack, no matter whether you're riding at a nice even pace or not.. so you gotta have a nice break between them and the back of the pack. .

[irenekat]

i voted no because i know that if someone invites you for a ride, its up to the person who gets invited to hold their own and ride within their limitations AND know the consequences good and bad with riding a motorcycle. its part of a learning process. if there was an option of "yes, but only if something serious happened" than ya, i wouldve picked that.

[Anonymous]

Well....although i wasn't really his fault, I would think he'd be feeling a bit guilty (me too, I'da felt terrible).

Since he invited him, he probably should have noticed his bud's abilities......I probably would have hung back with him to make sure he was in check. Not a popular way of thinking I'm sure, not high on the fun scale, but better than guilt in my book.

Now.....what about doing ALL THOSE things and he still goes down?

[fulcrum]

2 out of the last 3 rides organised by my wife and I had accidents.

The first one was a guy we'd just met on that ride, the second was mine.

With the first accident we had split up to head home. He went one way and we all went the other. He'd not taken that road before, and we warned him to calm down and be VERY careful as it is known to bite people. Sure enough he lost his bike (2 weeks old) over the cliff. It got wedged in a tree. He was fine (just bruising - he wore gear, and didn't go over the cliff). New bike and helmet via insurance, but it did take a while.

I felt bad about that. Maybe we should have gone with him etc, as we knew the road and he didn't. But he held no grudge. He said we'd warned him, he'd listened, but then he'd got overconfident when it appeared easier than we were talking about. It only takes one unfamiliar corner.

I got over the guilt after that.

A couple of weeks later I realised why he said what he said when I had my accident. It was my fault. Not anybody elses. If you are riding with friends, you'll probably know they are sensible enough not to blame anyone else for their mistakes.

A group ride with people you've never met can be a different situation though.

We now start each ride with a quick chat about keeping your own pace if there are people we haven't ridden with before, and letting them know we'll wait for them at various obvious points. If they are unfamiliar with the way, or uncomfortable I'll normally hang at the back with them (in areas of high traffic, or complex routes on the way to the twisty bits I'll be the tail rider anyway). If they have no gear we'll send them home. People on our ride must have a helmet (the only legal requirement), gloves and a jacket (leather or textile motorbike jackets only). They must wear jeans as a minimum. And we will let them know they should get more gear ASAP.

[thurockk]

Same thing happened to me about 4 yrs ago. I invited a friend out to ride and he went down. Unfortunately he didn't make it. I still harbor guilt from that incident, every time I see his wife and little girl. I know I probably shouldn't feel guilty, but knowing that doesn't ease the guilt.

[harrye]

I'd say the issue doesn't depend so much on who invited whom and which one went down. It could have been the inviter that when down, for any number of reasons; caught up in chasing a faster rider, equipment failure, actions of a third party.

If you invited your son, nephew, cousin, or someone else close to you, out for a ride, their safety would probably be at the forefront of your thoughts throughout the ride. In a case where you are older, and more experienced than the other rider, you'd probably feel some responsibility.

For young people of similiar experience, these things are more likely to happen. The other rider will get over the feelings of guilt, but the introspection will make them safer for themselves and others for the rest of their lives.

If a person feels guilt, they have to ask themselves why. Did they knowingly drive hard hoping the other rider would wipe out? A few times when driving a car, I've been the victim of road rage. I've certainly wished that the reckless driver wipes out at the corner ahead of me within my view and no one else gets hurt. But if all I do is wish, I sleep sound at night.

In the past I've done mostly dirt and trail riding by myself. But I've observed group riding more closely since I've taken up snowmobiling. In snowmobiling, especially on groomed trails, group riding is the rule, the absolute rule. When one group meets another, the riders hold out fingers to show how many riders are following them, so parties know when its safe to go like h*ll again. Newbies getting in trouble trying to keep up with the pack is a common issue in snowmobiling. Mature folk are carefull, the young guys (never girls) are less likely to be.

[Mojoe]

If someone is going to go down, they are going to go down. I wouldn't feel guilty about it at all. I would feel bad for the guy for going down, but hey S**t happens.

I am with Lou on this one. For sure I would feel bad for him, but not guilty. S**t happens.

[trinc]

there is a difference between a group ride and taking a noob out for a ride. A noob shouldn't be on a 'technical' ride, period. As the leader ( i don't mean riding in the front ) you should keep an eye on him - whether that's riding behind him or just in front. The problem seems to be that the experienced riders want to have fun and ride their pace - and tell the noob to do the same, saying we'll wait for you. IMO if you ask a noob out for a ride you are in a way taking them out to learn how to ride, sacrificing your fun . If you don't what that responsibility - don't bring them along.

tim

[Mojoe]

there is a difference between a group ride and taking a noob out for a ride. A noob shouldn't be on a 'technical' ride, period. As the leader ( i don't mean riding in the front ) you should keep an eye on him - whether that's riding behind him or just in front. The problem seems to be that the experienced riders want to have fun and ride their pace - and tell the noob to do the same, saying we'll wait for you. IMO if you ask a noob out for a ride you are in a way taking them out to learn how to ride, sacrificing your fun . If you don't what that responsibility - don't bring them along.

I hear what you are saying, but I am not sure I agree. First, they should have been bright enough to take a MSF course to start with, so technically they should already know how to ride....at least the basics. And I have yet to see any road that the basics are not good enough....unless you take them on a freshly grated gravel road, one of the most challenging conditions I know of...but most ppl shy away from these roads...even experienced riders...I happen to love it. I played host to many new riders last summer who had only temp permits while taking the MSF course. The law here is that your first year of riding can only be with a fully licensed rider accompanying you. I take each and every one of them on the nearest gravel road I can find. You never know when you will happen upon one and have no choice but to travel it.
2nd...if a new rider is not bright enough to know his own limitations and what he or she is comfortable with, and feel the need to push themselves to keep up, then they are the ones who are being irresponsible. I agree that the experience rider should not "temp" the noob into pushing his limits...but still, the noob should know better. If he or she doesn't know better, then there is a good chance they will also push themselves too far when they are alone.
So I sort of agree with you. The experienced rider does have some responsibilty, but only a small %. The rest lies with the noob.

[OldandReallySlow]

We had a ride planned with an older guy (yes even older than me) that was pretty much a straight line rider on a SuperChicken. He actually crashed out on the way to the meeting place for the ride. He was hurrying so much that he tried to take a 35mph curve at almost 100!!!! Needless to say, he didn't make it and we went without him (didn't know he had went down) I was a little guilty cause I had told him to be there at a precise time and knowing he was a Straightaway Commando, shoulda told him to take his time. Anyhow, guilts gone as he went out a week after he crashed (still hobbling) and bought a friggin Busa!!!

[Mojoe]

Anyhow, guilts gone as he went out a week after he crashed (still hobbling) and bought a friggin Busa!!!

Thats kinda like taking a butter knife away from a kid and giving him a machete to play with, isn't it? Anyway, it is not your fault. He should have known better.

[harrye]

...if a new rider is not bright enough to know his own limitations and what he or she is comfortable with, and feel the need to push themselves to keep up, then they are the ones who are being irresponsible. I agree that the experience rider should not "temp" the noob into pushing his limits...but still, the noob should know better. If he or she doesn't know better, then there is a good chance they will also push themselves too far when they are alone.

The fact that the rider is new might mean that he does not know his own limitations. Riding with others might add a psychological element to the activity that would not exist if the newbie were riding alone. The new rider may have a need to prove to himself that he is as good a rider as the others. The new rider may want to be "accepted" by the experienced riders, and feel that being left behind will mean that he won't be asked out for a ride again. There's pressure on that new guy.

I am surprized at how open some riders seem to be about going out riding with people that they do not know very well. If you have to ask yourself whether or not you should feel guilty about something, you probably don't know the other rider too well. I am under the impression that younger people are more open to new relationships. Yet I see mature Harley riders in large groups riding for some charitible event. Large numbers of total strangers having some kind of common afiliation riding together. I am trying to understand this.

[WildKat]

The fact that the rider is new might mean that he does not know his own limitations. Riding with others might add a psychological element to the activity that would not exist if the newbie were riding alone. The new rider may have a need to prove to himself that he is as good a rider as the others. The new rider may want to be "accepted" by the experienced riders, and feel that being left behind will mean that he won't be asked out for a ride again. There's pressure on that new guy.

I am surprized at how open some riders seem to be about going out riding with people that they do not know very well. If you have to ask yourself whether or not you should feel guilty about something, you probably don't know the other rider too well. I am under the impression that younger people are more open to new relationships. Yet I see mature Harley riders in large groups riding for some charitible event. Large numbers of total strangers having some kind of common afiliation riding together. I am trying to understand this.

thats the main issue, that many new riders dont take their own abilities or lack of abilities into consideration when they are riding w/ others. Especially others they dont know that well. They feel compelled to keep up and try and look like they know what they are doing, out of fear of embarrassment of what have you.

Some times stuff does happen, that you cant control, but keeping in mind what your own limitations are earns you more respect to fellow riders who have any kind of true realization of what riding is all about. If they're gonna look down on a new rider in any way, then they arent worth riding with in the first place.