a random law question in Ontario

[najstoyz]

Curious to know. Does anyone know what the law actions if caught not meeting the conditions of a graaduated liscense? For example: Is it a fine or loss of liscense to ride with an M1 past the posted hours and what about if you got caught carrying a passenger? This was a topic among friends today and no one really knew the answer to it. If someone knows please reply. Thanks.

[brightredkat]

So you got caught without a proper license and you were carrying someone on the back. Not smart. Laws are generally put in place for a reason, whether we like that reason or not.

I have no idea what the penalty is. I'm only responding because your post is a really weak attempt at a "I have a friend who has a question..." Sounds like you're in trouble. There's really no excuse for breaking licensing laws - they're not hard to comply with. You may get hit harder because you were carrying a passenger (and risking their life as well as your own), but I doubt you'll be forever prohibited from riding.

[Junior]

So you got caught without a proper license and you were carrying someone on the back. Not smart. Laws are generally put in place for a reason, whether we like that reason or not.

I have no idea what the penalty is. I'm only responding because your post is a really weak attempt at a "I have a friend who has a question..." Sounds like you're in trouble. There's really no excuse for breaking licensing laws - they're not hard to comply with. You may get hit harder because you were carrying a passenger (and risking their life as well as your own), but I doubt you'll be forever prohibited from riding.

.....

So BRK, you've never ridden 5kms over the posted speed limit? Or left home your wallet and license at home?

I don't see the point to your flaming of Naj.

If Naj had infact been caught riding his bike illegally, as you assume he has, why would he be asking us what the ramifications were? He'd already know what the ramifications were since he's already been caught, charged, fined, imprisoned, pistol whipped, strip searched, flogged, tar and feather, whatever.


Naj, excellent question! Honestly, I don't know, but I would think it all depends on what they decide to charge you with. Could be a fine, most likely a fine with demerit points. I don't see anything on the MTO site that breaks it down since I would assume it's pretty much up to the officers discrection.

Demerit Points and New Drivers
As a Class G1, G2, M1 or M2 driver, if you get two or more demerit points, you will be sent a warning letter.

At six points, you may have to go to an interview to discuss your record and give reasons why your licence should not be suspended. If you don't attend, your licence may be suspended.

At nine points, your licence will be suspended for 60 days from the date you surrender it to the Ministry of Transportation. You can lose your licence for up to two years if you fail to surrender your licence.

[brightredkat]

Nah. He was caught riding illegally.

I'm not saying we don't all break a few laws sometimes on bikes. As riders, we all know we're a focus of police attention, so we should do everything we can to make sure when we're stopped, we're legal.

My point was that since it's so simple to comply with licensing requirements, why break them? It may take a weekend or two to get a license in most areas, and the penalty for not having one could be severe. On a simple cost/benefit analysis, why risk the penalty for such a simple thing to avoid? And why risk having an accident and ruining some property or injuring/killing someone only to have the insurance companies not pay out because you didn't have a license (or not pay out to the family of the person who ended up in hospital for two months because of you)? The legal and financial risks are huge compared to the effort needed to comply with the licensing laws.

Licensing also fulfills an important safety role for the rider and the general public - it shows that the rider is competent and is capable of riding to an acceptable level of safety, and it may also show (depending on the jursidiction) that the rider is insured, the bike is roadworthy etc. All this notwithstanding the fact that riders without licenses are overrepresented in accident statistics! I'd rather not be on the street with people who could be dangerous riders, and I'd rather not have those potentially dangerous riders either injuring/killing themselves or other people around them, if for no other reason than it makes riding more expensive for all of us.

(I'm trying not to preach here, but it's not working too well, so I'll continue with the mini rant.)

Just as it's plain dumb to ride on bald tires, or without a jacket and helmet, or when it's possibly icy on the roads, it's plain dumb to ride without obtaining a license.

I think we all have the common sense to be able to distinguish between riding 5 mph over the speed limit when road conditions allow and failing to go through the proper licensing procedures (and then carrying a passenger too). Breaking a law is not black and white - some laws are less harmful to break than others. On a bike, it's sometimes easy to start exceeding the speed limit - we're watching traffic, trying to get into a safe position, and before we know it, we're driving at 45 in a 40 zone. That's a real minor infraction, and it happens all the time. But getting a license is not something that just slips your mind. It's not something that you easily forget you need to do. If you get on a bike without a license, you've instantly made a conscious decision to break that particular law for the duration of the ride. It's not an accident that you broke the law. It was deliberate, and there's no other argument that can be made. If you hit someone at 45 mph in a 40 mph zone, it's really hard to prove that you were speeding and that the speed caused the accident. If you were driving without a license, it's a slam dunk case that you were in the wrong.

[Junior]

But getting a license is not something that just slips your mind. It's not something that you easily forget you need to do. If you get on a bike without a license, you've instantly made a conscious decision to break that particular law for the duration of the ride.

Ok, so Raj's original question was regarding "graduated licensing" ...meaning:

With a M1 license he is NOT allowed to:
1. ride on a hwy with a posted limit of greater than 80km/h
2. ride with a passenger
3. ride between the hours 30mins after dusk and 30mins before dawn
4. ride with any amount of alcohol in the blood stream

With a M2 license he is NOT allowed to:
1. ride with any amount of alcohol in the blood stream

So, based on these provincial stipulations I am assuming that Raj and his friends are discussing someone that obtains a M1 class license.
In Raj's scenario, if someone legally obtains a M1 license and rides with a passenger, yes, they are breaking the law, but they are still legally licensed to be on the road.
Raj's "friend" is not riding without a license...he's merely not adhering to the stipulations within the guidelines of that license.

Let's say that I've had my drivers license for 20 years and decide to pile 30 people in the back of my 2 door sports coupe. I am still licensed to drive the car, but I am not licensed to carry 30 people in a vehicle that does not safely comply within proper operational guidelines.

Breaking a law is not black and white - some laws are less harmful to break than others.

It's seems pretty black and white to me.... you break the law, you're guilty. Whether one law is less "harmful" that another, sure, littering is less harmful than murder, but they are both illegal.

My (somewhat moot) point is....whether you have a full license or a graduated license...at some point we ALL break the rules that are outlined within our provincial or state guidelines when we are on the road. It's human nature. Born to be wild. Blah blah blah.

.......what was the question again?

[bubba]

Wow, the laws in Canada suck. In FL you take the safety course, go get ur license, and then your free to drive whenever, however you want. Well, if your under 21 you have to wear a helmet, thats the only restriction there is (which IMO you should have to wear it at any age.)

[katman05]

Brk how do you know he was riding illegally? We all break the law once and a while, sometimes we get caught other times we don't.Naj here's a link for the licensing in Ontario, you might find something here.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/gradu/index.html

[najstoyz]

Thanks everyone for your imput and any links for assistance. FOR THE RECORD. I have not broken any of the M1 rules and neither have my friends that I know of. It was just a matter of discussion between a couple friends and myself and I looked upon your imputs just to see if anyone knew the answers. I don't plan on breaking the law. I only have 2 weeks to go then I am free to do as I please other than have a legal blood alcohol limit. If anyone has any further information on this topic, feel free to comment.
Oh... and... don't always assume someone has done something wrong just because they have asked a question "BRK"......... Junior was right... I would already know the ramifications. Thanks.

[katman05]

Well said naj

[Crackshot]

That's it. He used proper capitalization and punctuation. I believe him.

[chinto]

That's it. He used proper capitalization and punctuation. I believe him.

why wouldn't you??? as mentioned...don't you think he'd know the ramifications if he did get caught doing it?

[Junior]

Anyone know what the penalty for murder is in Texas?






....oh crap...now you know I murdered someone in Texas.

[bubba]

Anyone know what the penalty for murder is in Texas?






....oh crap...now you know I murdered someone in Texas.

Are you making fun of Texas?

[katman05]

bubba wrote

Are you making fun of Texas?

Everybody knows not to mess with texas

[chinto]

Anyone know what the penalty for murder is in Texas?






....oh crap...now you know I murdered someone in Texas.