how do i make a sharp turn at a decent speed?

[takirb]

i turned down a side road the other day, which contains a turn i've never really seen as sharp. i'm usually going at a cruising speed on my bike when i hit that turn, and will hit it at a strong acceleration in my car with no problem. well, i took that turn the other day at a faster speed on my bike than normal, and see a truck coming my way in the opposite direction. it wouldn't have been a problem if i could've used some of his lane to play it safe, but as it always goes, we passed each other right where i needed that room most. so i leaned over as far as i could without feeling like i was gonna scrape the pedals or exhaust, but it still didn't turn that sharp at all. i was too scared to turn the handlebars at the same time, so i just leaned. i'm scared if i turn the bars a little in a turn that i'll flip over. will i?

[BISQ]

No, you won't flip over. I promise. You can even scrape the pegs, centerstand, mid-pipe, and fairings without flipping over, if you do it right. I promise.

Two things from your post caught my attention--the fact that you were looking at the truck, and that you mention "turning the handlebars". Both of those things are trouble spots.

First, there is the issue of "target fixation". That's essentially the truism that you go where you look. If you are looking at the pothole, you hit the pothole. If you are looking at the squirrel in the road, you hit the squirrel, etc. It is imperative that you look through the turn--beyond the apex, at where you want to be when you exit. I can give you lots of ideas on this.

Second, "turning" the handlebars is NOT what makes the bike turn. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the term "countersteering", but that is what you need to do in order to initiate a turn, and to keep it there. Essentially, your rate of turn in and rate of turn is controlled by how much pressure you put on the inside grip. What does it mean in practice? If you want to turn right, push forward on the RIGHT grip. If you want to turn left, push forward on the LEFT grip. Go out and practice this. Not only will you become a better rider, it will probably save your life.

I can talk about this stuff for hours. Let me know if you need more help or clarification.

[md86]

Buy Sport Riding Techniques and read it , it will explain everything you need to know better than any of us can , I'm sure . No , you will not "flip over" , but unless you learn how to turn well , you may end up hitting something someday . Learn how to counter-steer . That's where you push on one bar and pull on the opposite bar and you will tip the bike over into the turn . Try it sometime . Push on the left bar , and you'll go left . This is at slightly faster than parking lot speeds , mind you . When you get better at it , you'll find it's kinda fun pushin on the bars to flip the bike back and forth quickly . Just be careful while you're learning this , because if you do it TOO quickly , you might end up learning how to slide down the road on your a$$ .

[md86]

Damn dude , beat me to it ! I type slow !

[takirb]

i've heard of that countersteering concept, pushing the bar to the left or right to go that direction. thinking about it, it doesn't seem to make sense. normally, if i push the right bar forward, the left bar will pull back and i'd turn left instead of right, like a slow-speed turn into my driveway or something. i have not tried this at a normal speed, but i will when i get it running again. it was weird to me that i was leaned over farther than i ever have, and still turned less than normal. the target fixation must've been my problem. i did experiment with that on a very sharp turn around my block at a slow speed and was amazed how i turned exactly where i was wanting to go. whereas any other time i'm braking and concentrating an awful lot on not turning too wide and hitting the ditch, which i always had my eyes on. now im really wanting to go out and practice this, just gotta get her running again before i have withdrawals thanks for the info ya'll, i really appreciate it!

[BISQ]

i've heard of that countersteering concept, pushing the bar to the left or right to go that direction. thinking about it, it doesn't seem to make sense. normally, if i push the right bar forward, the left bar will pull back and i'd turn left instead of right, like a slow-speed turn into my driveway or something. i have not tried this at a normal speed, but i will when i get it running again. it was weird to me that i was leaned over farther than i ever have, and still turned less than normal. the target fixation must've been my problem. i did experiment with that on a very sharp turn around my block at a slow speed and was amazed how i turned exactly where i was wanting to go. whereas any other time i'm braking and concentrating an awful lot on not turning too wide and hitting the ditch, which i always had my eyes on. now im really wanting to go out and practice this, just gotta get her running again before i have withdrawals thanks for the info ya'll, i really appreciate it!

Ok....a couple of things for you to think about:

1) Countersteering WORKS. Do NOT "turn" the bars--push one of the grips forward. What you said is right. When you push one forward, the other one comes toward you. What this does is initiate the action that causes the bike to lean in the direction OPPOSITE from the turn. In no way is it exaggerated enough to see, but it's how things get done.

The only time that countersteering isn't used is when you don't need to lean the bike to turn it--like when you're going 1mph in your driveway, for example.

2) NO BRAKING IN TURNS! There is a critical balace game that you are playing when you are turning. You only have a certain amount of traction. You want to use as much as possible of it for turning. Any traction used for braking is only going to make it that much more likely that you go down in the turn, or end up standing the bike straight up (which is what happens when you brake), and running through the turn. Get your braking done BEFORE you enter the turn. Slow in = fast out.

3) Throttle Control--the other skill to learn (and bad habit to break) is that the throttle has to be on during turns. At a minimum, you should crack the throttle open slightly--enough to keep the speed constant. Without doing that, two bad things happen--first, you will unbalance the suspension of the bike, and second, your steering inputs will have to be much more severe, as the front will carry much more weight that it should. Further, you run the risk of chopping the throttle, which will stand you up and run you wide--or drop you on your ear as you lose traction.

4) Chin up, head up, look through the turn.


Practice, practice, practice!

[crazymofo]

agreed.. practise practise practise!


countersteering uses the centrifugal force of the wheel spinning to tip the bike over into a corner..

push on the left hand bar the wheel will flop over to the left hand side, instigating a left handed lean on the bike, to see this in action more clearly and safely, get a bicycle wheel, hold the axle and spin the wheel, push the left side of the axle away from you (parralel to the ground) and the top of the wheel shall fall to the left. same applies to the bike.

you could try this as well to see... travel in a straight line at say approx 15-20mph, do not lean the bike with your body, just apply pressure to the left handle bar (push it away from you with the SLIGHTEST!!!! amount of pressure)

you will feel the bike drop into alean to the left, to bring to bike upright again, push the right handle bar till your upright.. remember, only apply small amounts of pressure to get the idea of it.


as others have said, look to where you want to go...AROUND THE CORNER! basicly corner basics are as follows (anyone feel free to correct or discuss this :P)

*come to a corner, with all braking done, BEFORE! the corner
(have your foot ready to apply rear brake if you feel corner speed is too high.. do not! use front brakes as this slows the rotation of the front wheel, minimising the effects of said centrifugal forces on front wheel)

*spot the apex of the corner, and begin to apply pressure to the inside handle bar, the bike will tip into the corner. lean the bike while applying a light steady throttle, whilst still applying counterstearing. on approch to the apex begin to seek out your exit point of the corner (the position on the road you want to be in after the corner) and keep looking towards this exit point, your prepherial vision will take care of everything else around you.

*once you spot your exit point, start to feed more power to the ground and accelerate out

*the thottle can be used to change your line slightly mid corner, tho this can upset the bike, so do it carefully, roll on the throttle to widen your line, roll off it to tighten it

hope this helps, LOL trouble ispeople may know what they are doing, but cant explain it clearly (like me lol) so you may want to buy a book or 3 and do some reading.. twist of the wrist is a good one, another was mentioned b4 by some one else.

good luck and take it easy till you build your skills

cheers.joe

[zleviticus]

three little letters for you MSF

take the Motorcycle safety foundations Beginner class. It is a three day or really a 2.5 day class that takes you from how the start the bike all the way to counter steering and swearving. It is an awesome class. The first 1.5 days might be a little boring and slow but it picks up quick. You might be thinking "but i already know how to ride." well they cover things that you do not know about or understand fully like countersteering.

[rockadaous]

three little letters for you MSF

take the Motorcycle safety foundations Beginner class. It is a three day or really a 2.5 day class that takes you from how the start the bike all the way to counter steering and swearving. It is an awesome class. The first 1.5 days might be a little boring and slow but it picks up quick. You might be thinking "but i already know how to ride." well they cover things that you do not know about or understand fully like countersteering.

best advice.... you'll learn a great deal in those 2 days.

[WildKat]

Great thread... counter steering is nearly impossible to understand until you do it..but once u do, it'll be second nature to you and wont even realize your doing it, but you really are, all the time.

MSF !!! there's no substitute for newer riders or those looking to reinforce skillz that may have been dimished over time or from a lack of riding.

[BISQ]

...(have your foot ready to apply rear brake if you feel corner speed is too high.. do not! use front brakes as this slows the rotation of the front wheel, minimising the effects of said centrifugal forces on front wheel)

No no....forget the rear brake. Use the front, and use it before you get to the corner if you need to scrub off speed. I use my middle finger only on the brake lever, as that is all you'll need to scrub down any extra mph, and it lets you leave the rest of your fingers on the throttle so that you can still maintain throttle control (remember, the throttle is cracked open--on--during cornering, as strange as that may sound to you).

Forget the rear--get the balls of your feet on the pegs and leave them there. When you're getting really good at cornering, we can talk about rear brake usage. When beginning--forget it. Pretend it's not even an option. The front brake handles nearly all of your stopping power anyway, it will certainly do for what you need here.

Remember, though--BEFORE you enter the turn. Go in slower than you think you need to, rather than pushing it to go faster. Slow in = fast out. Fast in = dead out.

[takirb]

i'm still looking forward to taking the MSF course. i checked their online site and it says if i've ridden at least 500 miles, then to take the 2nd course. would i still learn these things in the 2nd course as well? i only run into problems now when i try to take a turn at a decent to high speed. i also think i'm trying to go fast in and faster out. i'm sooooooooo gonna have to get my bike fixed this weekend lol

oh, another thing. i've talked to other guys who say they never use the front brake. even when i mentioned that i thought they should to at least balance out the braking, they still said "no, everything stops just fine using just the rear, stay off the fronts.." is this true for some bikes or what? my rear brake is really slack at stopping the bike (but great at locking the rear wheel and fishtailing me 30 ft unfortunately) as compared to the fronts that do a great job of braking..

[BISQ]

i'm still looking forward to taking the MSF course. i checked their online site and it says if i've ridden at least 500 miles, then to take the 2nd course. would i still learn these things in the 2nd course as well?...

Being new, you really should take the first course. You can always pick up the second one. You'll learn a TON in the first one that you'll use every day.

...oh, another thing. i've talked to other guys who say they never use the front brake. even when i mentioned that i thought they should to at least balance out the braking, they still said "no, everything stops just fine using just the rear, stay off the fronts.." is this true for some bikes or what? my rear brake is really slack at stopping the bike (but great at locking the rear wheel and fishtailing me 30 ft unfortunately) as compared to the fronts that do a great job of braking..

Stop taking advice from those people immediately. They're going to get you killed.

[crazymofo]

bisq... i completley agree, you should have all your braking sorted BEFORE the corner, using ur brakes (front mainly, a little from the rear) but if you do unexpectedly run into a corner that has a tightening radius, a little too hot.. what are you going to do? jam on the front brakes? dont think so.. the bike will want to stand up and not corner as much any more, also lock the fronts up or loose traction you can basicly kiss ur @ss goodbye LOL.

use the rear brake if u are running too hot in a corner, the braking effect isnt huge so it dosnt upset the bike too much, but still washes off speed enough for you to keep safe.

anyways, this is all subjective and opinionated, the best bit of advice given so far is to do that MSF?? course, get to it PRONTO!

cheers.joe.

[Meikol2]

...oh, another thing. i've talked to other guys who say they never use the front brake. even when i mentioned that i thought they should to at least balance out the braking, they still said "no, everything stops just fine using just the rear, stay off the fronts.." is this true for some bikes or what? my rear brake is really slack at stopping the bike (but great at locking the rear wheel and fishtailing me 30 ft unfortunately) as compared to the fronts that do a great job of braking..

Are those folks riding cruisers? A lot of cruiser riders and more specifically Chopper riders remove or ignore their front brake, mainly for looks, but also because of flimsy front ends that can be overpowered. Take the MSF beginners course and they will show you exactly what the differences are with one brake and both brakes. Most of your braking power is in the front on a bike. Actually most of the braking force in cars/trucks/vans is also in the front. Why do you think there are two big rotors up front and only one smaller one in the back? Think about your car, bigger rotors up front and smaller rotors or drums in the back.