Alternator fell apart?

[foxox]

Hi! This regards my 1989 GSX600F

I heard an unpleasant pinging/clanking sound on my last ride. It sounded like it was coming from behind the cylinders in the alternator area so I just unbolted the alternator and found a mess inside! I wanted to share the carnage for the curious, but also want someone to check out my plan for what to do next.

Pics!

http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/foxoxjd/library/1989%20Suzuki%20Katana%20GSX600F/Alternator

The rubber cushions are rock solid and they have shattered. The gear was clearly wobbling and banging around, probably causing my noise. There is even some marks of grinding on the plate behind the engine gear this one meshes with. The threads on the end of the alternator are toast from the gear wobbling on them and it feels like the alternator's bearings are not in perfect shape (but if I spin it, it does rotate a couple of times before stopping, so they're not completely jammed up).

Now, what I need help with:
It looks like there is supposed to be a washer and a nut on the end, retaining the gear to the alternator assembly. Is that right? I do not see these, so they are probably lost inside my engine.

My plan is to drain my oil and pull my oil pan and hope to find a washer and a nut in there. I just changed my oil a month ago so this is a bit of a nuisance but at least it isn't a huge expense. I'm going to buy a used alternator assembly and put that in. Am I wrong about the nut/washer or should I be doing anything different? Thank you!

[magman]

Can't see any pics

[loneraider]

I think your on the right track.
pull the oil pan and if you find anything it was worth it!!
the pics showed up fine on my computer.

[shpielers]

Pics showed on my phone just fine. I'd definitely pull the oil pan, nut/washed ended up somewhere. Hope they're just sitting right there.

[magman]

OK pics work for me now ...odd lol
Wow what a mess def worth seeing what u can find in oil pan.

[foxox]

I just took off the oil pan (holy crap that is a messy job) and found the nut in there (pics added to album http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/fo...00F/Alternator ). The nut hardly even looks like a nut anymore. I found some small chunks of the rubber cushion pieces in the pan too, but no obvious metal shavings. When I pour the oil out, I'll see if there's any sparkles in there.

I have new gaskets and 1997 used alternator on order, might arrive by the end of the week.

The washer thing next to the nut in my pics seems actually to be part "GASKET, OIL OUTLET 16529-27A01". Well... hmm.
I don't know what to do next, where to go fishing for the missing washer from the alternator gear. I really don't want to have to go disassembling the entire engine because I am going to move soon and might not have access to all of the stuff the Haynes manual describes for that... making sure mating surfaces are not warped and such. :S Gonna look around my garage to see if the washer jumped out and rolled away when I knocked the oil pan loose from its gasket....

[foxox]

I took of my clutch cover (oy... another gasket to buy... maybe now's a good time to rebuild the clutch too) and don't see the washer under there nor in the space under the #4 cylinder. I have to remove the clutch basket to get a look under the #3 cylinder... I guess I'll try doing that later.

[shpielers]

I've pulled my oil pan before and reused the gasket, hasn't been a problem in the 3 years since...

[foxox]

I've pulled my oil pan before and reused the gasket, hasn't been a problem in the 3 years since...

I already bought it and right away to maximize the chance it gets here quickly in case it was needed. It actually held up alright when I took off the pan so I could probably reuse it. If the new one doesn't get here by the time I put the pan back on, I might try reusing it first, then only bother trying to scrape off the old one if there turns out to be a leak.

The clutch cover gasket broke in multiple places while pulling it off, so that one definitely needs to be replaced!

I just let my oil pan soak in a mix of water and dish detergent for a few hours and what I thought was black paint turned out to just be a disgusting layer of black grease. It might have been painted once upon a time, since there are some especially stubborn spots still sticking to the pan... but anyway now most of my oil pan is aluminum colored :P Haven't found the washer yet but will be pulling the clutch basket tomorrow probably

I just bought all new clutch parts to put in too... it's definitely time to do that job. I'm just going all out here, thanks to this imploded alternator :P

[foxox]

Today I pulled off the clutch basket and looked behind there and in the area under cylinder #3... no luck there, but I did find the washer! It turned out it was up in the oil pickup tube mostly out of sight. I couldn't even get it out with my fingers; had to use a dental pick tool to reach around in there.

I should have it all back together next week. I'm really glad I found the missing parts!

[foxox]

Got everything back together... new clutch plates, simultaneously rebuilt and put on newer brake calipers, new butterfly valve pivot seals in the carbs, new engine-side carb boots, reused the old oil pan gasket without any issues so far. Clutch feels amazing; bike has never felt like this in all of the days I've had it. The way the RPMs change during acceleration is so different, to the point I'm worried there is a problem but it's probably just that it's actually working correctly for once. The brakes are doing much better than before too; there must have been air getting into the older calipers somehow, even after bleeding (a zillion times).


I recorded a video while fishing the lost alternator washer out of my oil pickup tube to show a friend what I was doing and when I went back and watched the video I could see a bunch of stuff stuck in the pickup tube oil strainer so I wound up unbolting the strainer cover and cleaning it out. There were metal shavings (surely from the alternator nut that bounced around in the engine) and rubber alternator cush drive pieces up there; glad I cleaned that out.

The old clutch plates and springs were all in normal range for thickness but I suppose they were "glazed" (though I'm not actually sure how that is supposed to look since this is my first time doing clutch work). The steel plates had burn marks on them and two of the friction plates were cracked through. The inner hub sleeve part of the basket had some DEEP groves on it (more than I thought would be right for just filing them down) from where the plates touch it so I bought a brand new one. The outer part of the basket also had some grooves and the part isn't available new so I bought a newer used one and filed down its grooves. I used an EBC SRK clutch kit for new plates and springs. I also did a complete clutch cable and pushrod freeplay adjustment, obviously (even the part under the plug on the front sprocket cover).

The butterfly valve seals on the carbs... when I got the bike started up for the first time after all of these repairs, I tried shooting some starter fluid around the carbs and got no reaction in the engine, so I thought I had busted all of the vac leaks. I noticed the throttle hanging later while syncing the carbs and tried the vac leak test again and the starter fluid seemed to be able to get through once again. BIG DISAPPOINTMENT! But then the problem went away and it didn't react anymore, so I am going to chalk it up to the seals seating themselves or warming up or something. The butterfly valve pivot shaft things might actually be worn down themselves, they're so old. The old seals were cracked, so in any case the new ones are an improvement. If it continues to be a problem my only recourse is to buy new carbs because I have already replaced everything else that could possibly be causing this and the shafts are not available anymore.

Now the important part actually relevant to this thread:

I put in a newer alternator. The bearings feel very smooth compared to the old one. I can get it to make a single click if I reverse the direction it turns, but that might even just be the brushes. Unfortunately, when the bike is running (even in neutral on the center stand) there is still a clanking sound coming from something, and I was worried that it was the alternator again so I took it out of the bike after going for a couple of short rides and it looks okay; the nut hasn't budged from where it's peened in place. The sound is much quieter than it was with the completely broken alternator so it might just be that I'm worrying too much. I recently adjusted the valves but part of me always worries after I do that that something might still be wrong, so I will probably take off the valve cover again in a few days to double-check those. Cylinder 1 and Cylinder 4 occasionally seem to get cooler than the other ones so I believe I might have an intermittent ignition problem, which might also be causing the sound. Going to see if the bike can get me to the salvage yard today to try a different coil. I also managed to find this post http://katriders.com/vb/showpost.php...78&postcount=7 where the author says worn alternator bearings caused a clanking. I put in a 1997 alternator (idk the mileage) so while it's much newer than my bike's original one and it feels fine in my hand, I guess I could still have this issue. Also, I reused the "generator drive gear" (the one which meshes with the alternator/generator gear) because the replacement clutch basket I bought did not come together with this gear and it looked fine to my eye, but I suppose there might be a spot where it is damaged from the old alternator falling apart on it. While I had the bike apart, I looked for any damage I could see in the clutch area and transmission (viewing through the oil pan area) and everything looked like it was in ship shape.

[foxox]

The clanking did not go away today, and there is some vibration. I replaced my 1&4 coil with one from the salvage yard and it's still being strange. There was some sediment (not rust, POR15'd the thing in 2011) in my tank so I drained my entire gas tank today, removed the various fittings, and washed it all out... allowing it to dry overnight. Will give the carb jets some attention tomorrow, sync again, and see if the strangeness/vibration goes away...

It's a real shame fuel/air/ignition is being weird right now because the brakes and clutch feel AAAAMAZING compared to how they used to...

[skjeflo]

"Clanking" noise: Cam chain or tensioner maybe?

[foxox]

"Clanking" noise: Cam chain or tensioner maybe?

Maybe; I'll add the tensioner spring/gasket to my shopping list for the next time I make a parts order.

While messing with the bike today the clanking sound was perhaps even less noticeable than before (I entirely forgot about it for most of the day, even). I wonder if there was some kind of mild damage to the gear the alternator meshes with from the old alternator disintegrating and it's being squished back to normal or something.... :S


I put in new oil (the stuff in there already was only about a month old but I wanted to replace it after all of the work I did recently).


I finished cleaning out the tank and reassembling and cleaned the carbs (let the jets soak in chem-dip for a couple of hours but did not do the bodies... already done that in the past but if it comes to it I will do that again). Checked the float heights, reassembled, sync'd, bike runs but not well and there's vibration, and there seems to be a vacuum leak because RPMs are hanging. My carb boots (both sides) are all BRAND NEW (new o-rings on the engine side too, and remember the 1989 vac ports are on the engine-side boots, so those are new and have fresh caps and everything and I even polished the mounting face on the engine where the boot o-rings touch and busted through some oxidation that was there), my throttle shaft seals are all brand new... I really don't know what would be causing a vac leak and I can't track it down. I remembered to apply silicone sealant on the airbox side where the boots contact the airbox so it's not that. Airbox drain tube is plugged, filter is secure (in fact, the filter is old so it's probably dirty, which should be causing the opposite of vacuum problems). It is possible the little foam seal around the lip of the filter is squished... I will be getting a new filter soon.


I also have this problem where frequently one of the cylinders will be cool (not firing, or at least not firing right), I'll turn off the bike and mess with something, turn it on again and it'll be a different cylinder. Rarely everything will be perfect and it'll run nicely for a little while but then go back to being bad. It seemed yesterday that the feeling of the bike changed multiple times while I was out riding around (maybe heat-related). It was going back and forth between #1 and #4 so I replaced the 1&4 coil a couple of days ago and today it seemed #4 and #2 were the ones going cool. It's absurd; I don't understand. I would think it could be dirty pilot jet, but it persists after cleaning the carbs thoroughly (and like, today I even cleaned the whole tank and rebuilt the petcock in case bits of its o-rings were disintegrating). I just bought a cheap ignitor box on ebay to test with... I doubt it's that, but who knows. Plugs all fire well when tested. I also bought a tester with a little lightbulb thing you put between the bolted-in spark plug and your plug lead and it flashes if you have spark and that always shows flashes when I test with it. So if I do have a spark problem, it's that it's intermittent, maybe missing every few times, but NOT that it isn't working at all. I'm going to go taken another look at my diaphragms... they're only 4 years old and were in good shape a couple of weeks ago but who knows...


I just checked the valve clearances recently so I seriously doubt it's that, but I will be taking the valve cover off soon once some parts get here in the mail. I can check the valves again then. Compression is all good (though I haven't checked for a couple of weeks, but I doubt it's changed since then). This is seriously frustrating... I do everything by the book and replace almost everything with fresh new parts and it's still trouble :P I should get a newer bike...


edit: diaphragms are fine, no holes. I also had put in new exhaust gaskets so it's not that. I am completely boggled.

[crimsontracer]

Oh man... you've got so many of the same symptoms I had been dealing with. Mainly the ghost dead cylinder. Mine seems to be a combination of bad fuel cock (dual outlet) and ignition. Still looking...