[06pakat]

going back to the bov i could just see that kat with the rfl and a D&D pipe, talk about a scary sound at a redlight, instant throttle response, engine screams up to 11 grand and then a deafning noise of the RFL. sure to make any would be racer shiver in thier skin. anyone else have the sound picture in thier head

[Polyester_Patje]

I have seen a lot of topics about turbo charging all kind of katanas and nobody talked about the oil supply for a turbo.

At the moment I'm building the MegaSquirt DIY EFI onto my 1995 600F with the TBs of an old Kawa 1100i with 4x 200cc injectors. Now I'm at a point that it starts and runs nice at 2000 revs so now I need to do my best to get it runing smooth from the bottom to the top.

When this is done, I want to put my Garret GT15 turbo onto the bike and I'm very scared for the lubrication the turbo bearings and overheating of the SACS cooling system (including the engine).

Anybody know if the actual oilpump has enough oilpressure to supply the correct amount of oil to the turbo and keep it cooled well enough? Or do I have to use a closed oil system with its own oilcooler and electric oilpump? I do not think the alternator can supply enough power to power the oilpump because the injectors use a lot power (almost all that is left after powering all the lights).

Thanks to all of you!

[donalson]

i've NEVER heard of any engine having issues w/ oil supply to a turbo... turbo's use VERY little oil... fairly typical to need a restrictor to keep to much oil from pushing its way past the seals which = free smoke show

[Polyester_Patje]

i've NEVER heard of any engine having issues w/ oil supply to a turbo... turbo's use VERY little oil... fairly typical to need a restrictor to keep to much oil from pushing its way past the seals which = free smoke show

Hmmz, you are right about that. Thnx for clearing up this part of my story. So now I have to figure out how to supply oil from the oilpan. I think it will give 'free smoke shows' when I just put in between the oilcooler and the return line to the engine.

This part (turbo) is completely new to me and I have seen a lot documentation on how to choose the right size turbo unit for the used engine. I was not able to find good examples and operational turbo installs about the oil supply for a turbo.

[donalson]

go pick up corky bell's "maximum boost" book... while there are some things that are disagreed on it has some good info in there

assuming the oil cooler is not controled by a thermostat (my old car was i know) and oil flows though it all the time it would be an ok place to T into... just would need to put a restrictor in there for the proper oil flow

[The CyberPoet]

The SACS system breaks the flow into two paths, one high-pressure low-volume (feeds the heads, piston jets, etc), and the other low-pressure high-volume (feeds the oil filter and the oil cooler). Whether the low-pressure/high-volume side has enough excess pressure at idle to feed the turbo is beyond me, but there is a pressure check valve (well, that's what's called anyway -- it's just a fitting in the base of the oil pan) that shunts excess pressure away from that side at higher RPM's. I wouldn't want to tap the high-pressure side for fear of starving critical upper engine components of oil.

Personally (in other words, how I would engineer the solution if I were undertaking this), I'd probably go with a secondary oil pump (electrical), if for no other reason than to be able to cycle oil through the turbo after engine-shut down to prevent oil coking in the turbo bearings, and tap that into the main sump at the rear for the supply. Then mate that with a larger main cooler (i.e. - 600 moves to the 750 cooler, 750 moves to the 1100 cooler; brackets need to be changed to compensate at the lower mounts for the oil coolers) to dump the excess heat while the engine is running. The design of the turbo itself will dictate whether it needs a constant supply or uses a sealed lubricant reservior.

The bike's total electrical output for a 98+ is rated at 550 watts; I believe the pre-98's with their single headlight have a total output of around 480-490 watts. Both systems operate with a typical excess value of 30 to 35%. You should be able to budget your electrical power off of those figures, although you may want to consider a specialty wound alternator to pump out a higher total wattage if the oil pump draws heavily or if your after-run period will be particularly taxing on the system.

Good Luck!
=-= The CyberPoet

[StevieB]

misery, im about to embark on a turbo upgrade to my 99 kat 750. i would love it if you could share some tips on carbs used, and just stuff in general.

what are you doing to presurise the carbs?

I don't know what you mean by a "carb nappy," but if using a carb, there are two approaches:

Blow-thru: pressurized air from the supercharger (turbine or positive-displacement) is literally "blown thru" the carb. This requires that the carb be enclosed in a case, so that pressure on diapharms, etc, is equal. Imagine a box that the carb(s) are in, sealed so that air blows into the carb, and around it, but the only exit is thru the outlet of the carb. The plumbing is turbo-carb-combustion chamber. You can build the case out of almost anything that is screwed together tite enough to withstand the pressure.

Pull-thru: Air is pulled thru the carb, mixed with gas there, and then flows thru the turbo. This requires more modification of the carb, but exatly what, I can't recall- it's been years. The plumbing is carb-turbo-comustion chamber.

Either way, a single carb will be much easier to work with than one per cylinder.

[Polyester_Patje]

So, if I get it right from the information above (thnx CyberPoet and Donalson), it is could be an idea to drill two holes into the oilpan (one in the front and one in the rear of it) and suck oil from the rear-side with an electric oilpump and supply the turbo unit with this oil.

What about connecting the turbo parralel onto the oil cooler pipes (put a T- or Y-piece between the lines to split it up)? Maybe an electric pump can be used to suck oil through the turbo into the oilpan again when the engine is switched off (with a small pcb and some relay units).

I also thought about buying a cooler of an 1100F and bolt this cooler onto the 600F engine. Or is it even better to get the cooler from a GSX-R1100? First I looked for a GSX-R750 oilcooler but they are hard to find over here in this smal, flat and wet country.

I do like to think about all possible solutions and read all kinds of information. Donalson, I borrowed that book from a colleague and it contains lots of very usefull information for turboing a car engine (also lubrication) and I missed this kind of information for the smaller bike engines and their much higher revs.

[The CyberPoet]

Oil cooler needs to come from an oil-air cooled bike. The oil cooler from a newer water-cooled bike won't have enough surface area for heat exchange (at least as a replacement for the existing cooler).

On the oil pan, you want your take-out hole as low on the rear as possible. If you're pumping the oil, you want to dump it back into the pan at a higher point, so it falls & mixes before being recirculated. I have some hesitation about plumbing into the front of the pan, but if done carefully, it should work, especially if you put it right next to the return line for the oil cooler (so it immediately mixes with the freshly cooled oil coming off the cooler -- turbo oil runs way-hot).

As for tapping off the cooler or cooler lines -- no clue whether the pressure there is high enough for your use. You could always put in a fitting and take some pressure readings to determine that. If you do, make sure you get readings with the oil temp up around 150 degrees C (really good & hot) -- a kitchen digital thermo probe at the metal coupling on the right side of the oil cooler will give you a reading within a few degrees of the actual oil temp.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[StevieB]

Dodge and Mitsu made several motors that may have made their way into Daytonas:

2.2 liter motors, made by Chrysler. These were fairly routenly turbo'd. As I recall, these turbos featured turbo vanes that made them have two outputs, one at lower turbo rpm, a different output (not just linearly higher) at higher turbo rpm. May be a good choice for a Kat, but not optimal, I would think (read on...)

2.6 L motors, made by Mitsu. Rarly turbo'd, but it was done on some front-engine/RWD drive cars. IMHO thrbo would be too big for even an 1100 or 1200 motor.

1.6 motors, made by Mitsi. This was turbo'd, and fairly often. Due to smaller engine size AND good availability, I would think this would be a very good choice for a Kat.

1.4 motors, made by Mitsi. Basically the same motor as the 1.6, but smaller bore, as I recall. I think these were turbo's occasionally, in some non-US markets, but I would bet the turbo would be hard to find.

I had a 1984 Turbo Colt. 1.6L motor, twin-stick transmission (EIGHT forward gears, TWO reverse!) Quicker than a scalded dog, and faster than the same year Corvette! I got to prove that once, too!

[Polyester_Patje]

Thnx for this valuable information.

I will continue with this project somewhere in march 2007 and I'm collecting all information so I will do it right in one turn instead of fooling around for several months.

A bit off-topic: now I'm building my own hayabusa powered Austin Mini (yes, that little brittish car) to get 200bhp into a 540kg car. First I have to finish this project and get it legally approved before I continue with my 600F

[Polyester_Patje]

Dodge and Mitsu made several motors that may have made their way into Daytonas:

2.2 liter motors, made by Chrysler. These were fairly routenly turbo'd. As I recall, these turbos featured turbo vanes that made them have two outputs, one at lower turbo rpm, a different output (not just linearly higher) at higher turbo rpm. May be a good choice for a Kat, but not optimal, I would think (read on...)

2.6 L motors, made by Mitsu. Rarly turbo'd, but it was done on some front-engine/RWD drive cars. IMHO thrbo would be too big for even an 1100 or 1200 motor.

1.6 motors, made by Mitsi. This was turbo'd, and fairly often. Due to smaller engine size AND good availability, I would think this would be a very good choice for a Kat.

1.4 motors, made by Mitsi. Basically the same motor as the 1.6, but smaller bore, as I recall. I think these were turbo's occasionally, in some non-US markets, but I would bet the turbo would be hard to find.

I had a 1984 Turbo Colt. 1.6L motor, twin-stick transmission (EIGHT forward gears, TWO reverse!) Quicker than a scalded dog, and faster than the same year Corvette! I got to prove that once, too!

I allready bought the Garret GT15 which came off an Renault 1.9 turbo diesel. This turbo is in its standard form almost perfect for the 600F. I've calculated that it should start building up pressure from 5800 rpm and goes all the way upto the top rpm (12300 rpm for my engine). The calculated bhp should be around 130bhp without an intercooler and 138bhp with intercooler running at 700 mbar pressure.

I think this more then enough for the 600F engine...

[StevieB]

I allready bought the Garret GT15 which came off an Renault 1.9 turbo diesel...I think this more then enough for the 600F engine...

I was thinking more along the lines of volume and turbo lag. I am not familiar with the Renault turbo diesel. Turbo lag is a function of excess air volume flowing into the motor- most often caused by long intake runs. If you could find a turbo off a motor the same displacement as your kat (1100? 750?) you would have the best chance at responsiveness. Perhaps that diesel motor uses a little turbo. I must plead ignorance here.

[Polyester_Patje]

I allready bought the Garret GT15 which came off an Renault 1.9 turbo diesel...I think this more then enough for the 600F engine...

I was thinking more along the lines of volume and turbo lag. I am not familiar with the Renault turbo diesel. Turbo lag is a function of excess air volume flowing into the motor- most often caused by long intake runs. If you could find a turbo off a motor the same displacement as your kat (1100? 750?) you would have the best chance at responsiveness. Perhaps that diesel motor uses a little turbo. I must plead ignorance here.

The turbo lag should be reduced to a minimum with the actual DIY EFI and all its extra sensors. I have a GSX600F (1995). All pressure levels are regulated by the EFI system to keep the best circumstances for almost all rpm. At high RPMs it gets a bit more global because of the table limitations of the ECU and its memory and at low RPMs it is more detailed to get optimal performance at low RPM. 55 % of the tables are used for low RPMs (upto 6000rpm), 15% for the midrange (6000rpm upto 7500rpm) and 30% for high RPMs (from 7000rpm upto the rev limiter).

On the Renault the turbo starts building up pressure from 2100rpm upto 4000rpm (was restricted). When I look at all the Garrett diagrams for this type of turbo, it looks like it should find a perfect fit, responsiveness and reaction on my 600F. After gathering this information I calculated and measuring all flows and these are all ok.

[donalson]

if you are going carbs blow though is the way to go... off boost engine works just like stock...

blow though has some serious issues w/ off boost reaction... it also realy can't be intercooled effectivly outside of alky injection.

as far turbo size... the gt15 should be a hoot... ball berings and all that jazz is nice ... no supprise that it maps out nicely to the 600 either... deisel of the same size vs petrol acts as a smaller engine... then figure in the very low RPM's they operate at.

i figure a good turbo would be from the suzuki/geo/pontiac swift/metro/firefly 1.0 3 cyl turbo engine...

as for lines... the oil drain needs to be ABOVE the oil line to properly drain... it also needs to be a fairly large line 1/2" or so... as the oil from a turbo is VERY frothy much like a milk shake... for the feed a common location is to T off the oil pressure sensor (on cars at least) as it's a consistant pressure location... but i'm not sure where the sensor is located on the kat...