Confused by Rotella T oil.

[loonybin]

OK, I've read the stickies and CP's web site on oil, and umpteen threads on here about oil, and it's left me a bit confused (ok, more than a bit).

I have my NAPA PS1359 oil filter, and my Fumoto valve is on order, so the only thing left is the oil.

I didn't get to ride my '97 Kat much over the summer because of gas tank issues, so I need to change the oil from the old oil that was in it before i bought it (it's been in there over a year!). Not only that, but I ended up laying it down this evening in my driveway (literally laid it down -- nice and gentle -- when the front wheel got stuck at an angle on a raised part of my driveway as I was trying to back it into the garage causing me to lose my balance) Since it has old oil in it and probably some gas now, I need to do two oil changes in quick succession to get all of it changed out.

I've read that lots of folks on here use the Rotella T 15w-40 in their pre'98 Kats, and at $13/gal at Wally-World, it's really tempting for the first full oil change. I want to switch to full synthetic at the following oil change.

What has me confused is this:


CP's site says this about JASO oils:

If you ride a Japanese motorcycle build between 1971 and 2005, and it calls for one of the following API specs (SD, SE, SF, SG and/or SH), then the JASO MA standard is recommended (but may not be required) -- as it will help keep your older motorcycle from encountering some of the problems that induced the JASO organization to create the JASO MA standard in the first place.

How can it be both JASO-MA and API SM?? It will save me about $14 or more for this first full oil change (right now that's a lot of money), but that isn't worth the price of hospital bills because my tranny/clutch failed at the wrong time causing me to wreck. So... is it OK to use Rotella T 15w-40 or not???

[scottynoface]

Rotella T6 5w-40...done. Great cheap oil.

[cintidude04]

Why couldn't it be? Far as I know it is just 2 different organizations ratings. It'd be like asking How can a helmet be approved by both DOT and SNELL.

[loudnlow7484]

I've used nothing but Rotella (in regular and synthetic) for the last few years, and I've had no problems at all...... and I really ride the hell out of my bikes, too. Thousands of motorcyclists swear by it; it's not going to damage anything.

[Wild-Bill]

Don't use that oil.

That label has two separate (but similar) ASI ratings, CJ and SM. The C says it's rated for diesel engines and the S says it's rated for gasoline engines. The part that rules that oil out is the second letter of the ASI ratings. The M in the SM rating tells you that the oil has "friction modifiers" added to the blend. You don't want that on your clutch. Instead, look for oil with an ASI-SJ rating.

I used regular car oil; generally Castrol or Halvolene 10-W40 in my bikes for years. This summer I changed my oil using the cheap Rotella T (ASI-CJ/SM) and my clutch went completely out less than 50 miles later. When I took things apart I discovered that everything was well within specs (spring lengths, clutch disk thickness, runout, etc.) but even after cleaning everything up and changing the oil again the clutch was still shot. (...although it did manage to work long enough to get me to the other side of a hill from my house!) I have no definitive proof that it was the friction modifiers that killed my clutch (nothing I'd take to court) but you change the oil, 50 miles later your clutch stops working and there's no visible, measurable reason why... I'm convinced.

[scottynoface]

Don't use that oil.

That label has two separate (but similar) ASI ratings, CJ and SM. The C says it's rated for diesel engines and the S says it's rated for gasoline engines. The part that rules that oil out is the second letter of the ASI ratings. The M in the SM rating tells you that the oil has "friction modifiers" added to the blend. You don't want that on your clutch. Instead, look for oil with an ASI-SJ rating.

I used regular car oil; generally Castrol or Halvolene 10-W40 in my bikes for years. This summer I changed my oil using the cheap Rotella T (ASI-CJ/SM) and my clutch went completely out less than 50 miles later. When I took things apart I discovered that everything was well within specs (spring lengths, clutch disk thickness, runout, etc.) but even after cleaning everything up and changing the oil again the clutch was still shot. (...although it did manage to work long enough to get me to the other side of a hill from my house!) I have no definitive proof that it was the friction modifiers that killed my clutch (nothing I'd take to court) but you change the oil, 50 miles later your clutch stops working and there's no visible, measurable reason why... I'm convinced.

I had the same experience with the white jug, ran the synthetic and it disappeared. Strange.

[steves]

Rotella changed their forumlation and ratings on some of the oils recently... I remember reading something about it but not the specific content (and no link handy).

JASO-MA

JASO is an acronym that stands for "The Japanese Automotive Standards Organization." Among other things, they set standards for oil to be used in motorcycles.

Shell Rotella T 15W-40 conventional oil now lists on its packaging JASO MA as one of the specifications it meets, as does the Rotella website product page:

Note that the 10W-30 conventional oil does not list JASO-MA.

The newer fully synthetic T6 5W-40 oil also lists JASO-MA compliance on its packaging and on the Rotella website.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Rotella_T

[loudnlow7484]

Don't use that oil.

That label has two separate (but similar) ASI ratings, CJ and SM. The C says it's rated for diesel engines and the S says it's rated for gasoline engines. The part that rules that oil out is the second letter of the ASI ratings. The M in the SM rating tells you that the oil has "friction modifiers" added to the blend. You don't want that on your clutch. Instead, look for oil with an ASI-SJ rating.

I used regular car oil; generally Castrol or Halvolene 10-W40 in my bikes for years. This summer I changed my oil using the cheap Rotella T (ASI-CJ/SM) and my clutch went completely out less than 50 miles later. When I took things apart I discovered that everything was well within specs (spring lengths, clutch disk thickness, runout, etc.) but even after cleaning everything up and changing the oil again the clutch was still shot. (...although it did manage to work long enough to get me to the other side of a hill from my house!) I have no definitive proof that it was the friction modifiers that killed my clutch (nothing I'd take to court) but you change the oil, 50 miles later your clutch stops working and there's no visible, measurable reason why... I'm convinced.

How long ago was this? I just changed the oil in the GSXR ~1 month ago with white jug Rotella, and the clutch is holding fine through all of my abuse. Maybe we don't sell enough of it around here, and it was old stock? I have a hard time believing that Shell isn't keeping an eye on motorcycle compatibility since Rotella has found such a market with motorcyclists.

[Wild-Bill]

It happened just recently. Recently enough that the new clutch pack is still waiting to be installed so I can ride again.

[sky1865]

So the blue jug is still ok, don't use the white jug tho?

[steves]

How long ago was this? I just changed the oil in the GSXR ~1 month ago with white jug Rotella, and the clutch is holding fine through all of my abuse. Maybe we don't sell enough of it around here, and it was old stock? I have a hard time believing that Shell isn't keeping an eye on motorcycle compatibility since Rotella has found such a market with motorcyclists.

The JASO standard was updated on Oct 1 I think.

[loudnlow7484]

I can't find any information about them changing anything so far. The only thing that would likely cause clutch problems is if they bumped up the moly a bunch, but JASO-MA specifically disallows large amounts of moly..... so it would be a very dangerous thing of them to keep listing JASO-MA compliance with a lot of moly in their oil.

Well..... I have to change the oil in the GSXR again soon. I'll dump another white jug in (even though I usually use blue jug when it's cold), and if it slips on me I'll get a UOA done. I have a little canister from Blackstone hanging around here because I wanted to check out the oil in the Kat and never did it.

BTW- A little API-SM info: http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pd...%20Ratings.pdf

[loonybin]

The JASO standard was updated on Oct 1 I think.

Retella T was updated to JASO-MA before June 2011, I'm pretty sure.

[loonybin]

Rotella T6 5w-40...done. Great cheap oil.

You must not have a pre-98 Kat. Neither my service manual nor user manual list 5w-40 as being OK for my bike.

Why couldn't it be? Far as I know it is just 2 different organizations ratings. It'd be like asking How can a helmet be approved by both DOT and SNELL.

I thought the friction modifiers were not allowed by JASO-MA specs, which is why it's confusing that the oil would have both listed. If the API-SM does not use moly as the friction reducer, then I can see how they could have both listings.

I've used nothing but Rotella (in regular and synthetic) for the last few years, and I've had no problems at all...... and I really ride the hell out of my bikes, too. Thousands of motorcyclists swear by it; it's not going to damage anything.

What Katana do you use it in, though? a pre-98 Kat or a newer one?


It seems the consensus is that there is no consensus on whether it's OK to use, then?

[loudnlow7484]

What Katana do you use it in, though? a pre-98 Kat or a newer one?

I started using it in an 89 (IIRC) Katana 750, then in a 94 Katana 600, then a 94 Katana 750, then an 82 Yamaha XJ 650, then a 91 GSXR1100. I also have it loaded up in a 97 Yamaha YZF1000, but I haven't ridden it since changing the oil.

5w-40 is perfectly acceptable for your engine. If you can run 10-40, or 15-40 or straight 40 weight, then you can run 5-40 (or 0-40 if you can find an appropriate oil in that weight). The first number only shows the weight that the oil acts when it's cold. All oil gets thicker when cold, but 5-40 doesn't get as thick as 10-40 when it's cold. At running temperature, they are the same weight (considerably thinner). Now, running 5w-20 would be a terrible idea, because at running temperature, it would be effectively 20 weight oil, which is far too thin for everyday use.

I thought the friction modifiers were not allowed by JASO-MA specs, which is why it's confusing that the oil would have both listed. If the API-SM does not use moly as the friction reducer, then I can see how they could have both listings.

API-SM doesn't dictate the use of moly, it just sets different standards that need to be reached. I posted a link to a pdf of information about it.

JASO-MA also doesn't seem to specifically disallow moly (some motorcycle oils contain a surprising amount of it), but the testing is focused on making sure that the oil is safe for use on a wet clutch.

Rotella 15w-40, specifically, has as much of the anti-wear additives that we need as many motorcycle oils do, and less moly than many motorcycle oils do. It does, however, contain SOME moly (~100ppm, IIRC), so if your clutch is on its way out, it could be just enough to make it slip.

In contrast, I believe Redline has something like 600ppm moly, and the higher end Motul oil has ~500ppm moly...... but several motorcycle oils have effectively no moly at all.