Skier's amazing non-starting '89 Katana 600

[Skier]

If you remember this star player from a while ago, it's my '89 Katana 600:



It had vacuum leak problems around the carb boots to cylinder head area. I purchased and installed new o-rings so it would seal and get rid of that vacuum leak. Now that I've installed the carbs again, she won't fire up.

I thoroughly cleaned and then installed a DynoJet stage 1 jet kit on the carbs, before I found this place and discovered the jet kit FAQ and whatnot. In my defense, my bike does have aftermarket headers (maybe from a 750, not sure) and a new pipe. No stock exhaust here. It also has an OEM replacement K&N airfilter.

Now, tonight, with the carbs freshly reinstalled and set to the basic tuning specs DynoJet recommends, it doesn't catch. This was probably due to not having the airbox on, making a lean condition (my plugs were all dry). I have since then fixed that problem, but didn't reinstall the air filter (those boots from the airbox to the carb lost a little bit of flexibility over the past 15 or so years). It still does not catch. No amount of playing with the choke will get even a burble out of it.

I have spark with all four plug wires. Brand new spark plugs all 'round, just installed them tonight. For what it's worth, it is fairly cold out, about 40 degrees outside, but a bit warmer inside.

The best results I've acheived so far tonight is the bike starting and popping up to 5,000 RPMs with some starter fluid sprayed into the airbox before cranking. Other than that, it hasn't caught at all.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[The CyberPoet]

Is the spark occuring at the right time? Might want to check your signal generator to make sure it's in the right spot and not loose. I'd also suggest pulling the valve covers off and using a set of feelers to check the valve adjustments -- if the valves are too far off, you may not be getting enough compression to permit proper detonation...

Q: Did you buy this in non-working shape, or was it running previously?

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[kiba]

I'm assuming you put the gas tank back on... Did you put it on prime for a few moments? The lines/bowls need to refill before it will start.

/kiba

[Skier]

I'm assuming you put the gas tank back on... Did you put it on prime for a few moments? The lines/bowls need to refill before it will start.

/kiba

Yep, tank is on and gets set to prime for a minute or so, as I stand the biek up and slosh the gas around the tank. I can see gas flowing through my clear inline fuel filter.

Is the spark occuring at the right time? Might want to check your signal generator to make sure it's in the right spot and not loose. I'd also suggest pulling the valve covers off and using a set of feelers to check the valve adjustments -- if the valves are too far off, you may not be getting enough compression to permit proper detonation...

Q: Did you buy this in non-working shape, or was it running previously?

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

Not sure about spark at the right time. Could be the problem, I will see about checking that. I assume my shop manual details it. I sure hope those valves aren't that far off at only 13k miles! I guess I'll add that to my list of stuff to check.

I purchased the bike in barely-running condition. Bad vacuum leak, made it run like poo. Gummed up carbs, made it run even worse.

[kiba]

The best results I've acheived so far tonight is the bike starting and popping up to 5,000 RPMs with some starter fluid sprayed into the airbox before cranking.

Yep, tank is on and gets set to prime for a minute or so, as I stand the bike up and slosh the gas around the tank. I can see gas flowing through my clear inline fuel filter.

Then my vote is that something is still screwey with the carbs.

/kiba

[The CyberPoet]

Then my vote is that something is still screwey with the carbs.

I'm thinking carbs or bad fuel. Fuel is cheap, so start there... Get something with loads of detergents in it (Shell System V or Chevron, etc).

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Skier]

The best results I've acheived so far tonight is the bike starting and popping up to 5,000 RPMs with some starter fluid sprayed into the airbox before cranking.

Yep, tank is on and gets set to prime for a minute or so, as I stand the bike up and slosh the gas around the tank. I can see gas flowing through my clear inline fuel filter.

Then my vote is that something is still screwey with the carbs.

/kiba

I've been in and out of those countless times, now. Everything I can think of is correct: float height, float play, needles and seats(brand new), jets all installed correctly, no clogged passages, everything moves freely, etc...

Then my vote is that something is still screwey with the carbs.

I'm thinking carbs or bad fuel. Fuel is cheap, so start there... Get something with loads of detergents in it (Shell System V or Chevron, etc).

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

I will see about getting another gallon of fresh gas with soem SeaFoam or Marvel Mystery Oil in it, as well. I've always had good lock with the MMO. It's just I don't see how the detergents can clean my fuel system that I *know* is already spotless. I could eat off the carbs, after wiping off the gas.

Thanks for thr help, though. Gives me a better place to start than "roll the bike out in front of the school bus and let insurance buy me a new one."

[Skier]

I am currently debating moving all my new parts over to my spare set of carbs that came with the bike. The problem is I have to find the time to clean the buggers, and every single screw on the outside is frozen solid.

On the other hand, it would give me stock carbs to work with, rather than jet-kitted ones.

[The CyberPoet]

...every single screw on the outside is frozen solid.

If you're talking about the float bowl screws being stuck, this is common. Take a pair of vice grips to them from the sides to get them started turning, and serious consider replacing them with better ones from Ace Hardware or another small hardware store that carries metric replacements.

My advice: first try swapping carbs without moving any parts between them and see what that gets you.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Skier]

...every single screw on the outside is frozen solid.

If you're talking about the float bowl screws being stuck, this is common. Take a pair of vice grips to them from the sides to get them started turning, and serious consider replacing them with better ones from Ace Hardware or another small hardware store that carries metric replacements.

My advice: first try swapping carbs without moving any parts between them and see what that gets you.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

From the one carb I mangled apart, it doesn't look to be in too hot of condition. Fairly clean, but it is gummed up in some places and the slide diaphragms are really stiff.

[The CyberPoet]

My advice: first try swapping carbs without moving any parts between them and see what that gets you.

From the one carb I mangled apart, it doesn't look to be in too hot of condition. Fairly clean, but it is gummed up in some places and the slide diaphragms are really stiff.

I didn't say don't clean it -- I said just don't intermingle parts at first.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[Skier]

Aight, I'll see if I can dig up some time to try that in the near future. Thanks.

[01Katman]

did you say you are trying to start it without an air filter in?? even with a good jet kit it may be hard to start like that. I know my bike is very hard to start when its under 40 degrees out even with the choke on. I have to sit there and keep playing with the throttle and choke and get the right combination but if you do still have the filter out try putting it back on or the stock filter if you still have it back in also. Later ~Heath

[Skier]

Finally got the bike some fresh gas from Shell, jet-kitted carbs back on with the air box and K&N air filter. Bike seems to start alright after getting the garage up to a decent temp with a heater. It didn't want to start with any combo of choke or throttle so I sprayed a good half second or so of starter fluid at the air filter. Now it will crank right over and start, but the idle leaps to about 5,000 RPMs. Idle adjuster is way out and screwing it CCW doesn't change idle. I don't think the starter fluid lasts as long as the bike was running (a good 30 seconds or so, then wait five minutes and crank it again to the same effect).

It was putting out a bunch of white smoke out the exahust, effectively clearing the lower floor of the house and angering the roomies, but oh well.

I thought rich was black smoke, and that would explain such a high idle, but now I'm just more confuzzled.

It seems I have no luck with my own vehicles, I got my buddy's 1981 Yamaha up and tuned for him, but my bike? Bwahaha, not any time soon...

(edit)

Bit of research and thinking, signs point to my bike running really lean. It would explain why it doens't start when the airbox is off. Will see about adjusting my mixture screws out and seeing what happens.

(edit)
After more tinkering, where I spun the idle mixture screws back a full turn on each carb, still a no-start condition. Touch of starter fluid and it spins right up to about 5,000 and the white smoke again.

I tried putting the choke on full, thinking it's still lean, and was rewarded with a really loud POP a quarter second or so after the engine stopped spinning after I let off the starter.

[Skier]

I cleaned my other set of carbs, set everything to stock, set the pilot mixture screw to 2.5 turns out and she fired right up. Still getting a bit of white smoke, but significantly less. I spun the mixture screw out another half turn to get 3 turns out and it's still lean and is racing at idle (no throttle, idle speed is backed off all the way).

I am wondering if the K&N filter is just not working out too well. It is probably all old and messed up, I will see about ordering an OEM replacement.

But she runs!