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stripped oil drain threads - need HELP

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  • #16
    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
    Originally posted by nurider
    1. Retapping sounds like a good option. Due diligence would have me ask if there's sufficient metal around the original hole/tap. Can anyone confirm?
    Will need stuff to retap. Home Depot to the rescue?
    If you get a whole set, go HarborFreight (or HarborFreight.com). If you are just getting a single tap, I'd suggest trying Ace Hardware (Home Depot/Lowes didn't have 14mm taps when I checked my local stores).
    Single tap only, I suspect.

    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
    Originally posted by nurider
    As for welding on more aluminum - I wouldn't know how. And since I'd like to take care of this myself, not viable.
    Are fumoto valves readily available?
    Yes. Past experience tells me fulfillment is usually about 4 days via 1st class mail. See www.fumotovalve.com

    Stock size is F111 (M14-1.25). If you tap over to the next Fumoto valve size up, it would be a F108 (16mm 1.5 turns per). Do not get an "N" model; you don't want the extra clearance issues with the nipple.
    Thanks for the heads up.

    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
    Originally posted by nurider
    I think BISQ mentioned a drill/tap set would run about as much as a new pan.
    A full metric tap/die set from HarborFreight would run about what you could expect to pay for an used pan with freight ($40).
    If the cost diff between a new and a used pan is only about $20, I'll go new.

    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
    Originally posted by nurider
    2. I'll check with the stealership if they carry self tapping plugs.

    3. Would like to explore this (either Keensert or heli-coil). Any issue with long term integrity of such a fix?
    Lack of other ideas points me to Home Depot.
    Possible to install fumoto valve with this kind of fix?
    Helicoils have a habit of coming out with the bolt if the bolt is removed again in the future. This would be a non-issue with a fumoto valve, since the valve wouldn't come out again. KeenSerts don't have that issue, but require more involvement to install and are harder to source (your local auto parts shop may have helicoils; unlikely to carry KeenSerts).
    Easy enough to check; will call around.

    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
    Originally posted by nurider
    4. Replacing the pan: used or new. Sounds good. Don't know if I want to get into cleaning/etc. a real old one ..... thanks, though.
    Uhhh .... since I could, potentially, have ruined the pan drain myself (I prefer to think it was the previous owner), I don't want to ruin the next pan too. Should probably stay away from too many torque requirements. That's why the fumoto sounds pretty good.
    For the record, I never stripped the drain plugs on any of my cars ......
    Unless you drive a VAG (VW or Audi), odds are you've never run into a situation where the pan is aluminum and the bolt is a significantly harder composite-steel blend. Audi owners do it all the time, and our Audis' are the reason I'm familiar with the Fumoto valve.?
    As a matter of fact, I do have an Audi ...... still under warranty, so oil changes are done by the dealer 8) . By the sound of things, probably a good thing to know this possible issue with a simple oil change.

    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
    Meanwhile, if the pan for your bike is $64 new, personally I'd get a new one.... for the pre-98 price, I'd buy new.
    Will check $$

    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
    You need a centerstand or a bike stand. If the bike has a centerstand, that is all you need in terms of support. If it doesn't have a centerstand, seriously consider tracking one down, since it's infinitely useful. I recall someone around here even had a mod to let you install/uninstall one in a matter of 30 to 60 seconds if you don't like riding with one but want one for working on the bike...
    No surprise, but will mean another delay due to trying to get one at a reasonable cost.

    Hopes of riding this weekend fade into the sunset .................

    Unless the local shop/guy can help me out.

    Thanks, again.

    Comment


    • #17
      As for welding the pan. It is only about 60% aluminum and the rest is pot metal. I know b/c my cousin who owns a machine shop welded mine up that I cracked and they said it was a pain. They also welded in the drainpulg to help make sure there was no leaks around there and then tapped the drainplug. They then put JB weld all around the welds for added protection. I will not use this oil pan unless I run into a dire need next time.
      www.mopowersports.com

      Comment


      • #18
        Alright, after many phone calls, and digging on the net, and thinking abuot options and costs, here's the plan:

        1. drop exhaust, take oil pan off
        2. take it to dealer (dealer says he'll only charge for his time spent, not just flat for an hour, $59/hour) and
        a. have the next larger size (16mm) drilled/tapped
        OR
        b. install helicoil kit (14mm - 1.25), which costs $28.88 or $29.99, depending on which store I deal with.

        3. new oil pan gasket ($9.84), ADD a crush gasket ($0.85) for drain plug (last owner ... grrrrr), and new drain plug ($1.15)
        Worth the dealer costs, as online would require shipping costs.

        4. Fill 4 quarts of oil

        5. RIDE

        Any flaws?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by nurider
          Any flaws?
          No if you desperately want to ride this weekend.
          Otherwise, order the replacement oil pan, gasket and a fumoto valve

          Cheers
          =-= The CyberPoet
          Remember The CyberPoet

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by The CyberPoet
            Originally posted by nurider
            Any flaws?
            No if you desperately want to ride this weekend.
            Otherwise, order the replacement oil pan, gasket and a fumoto valve

            Cheers
            =-= The CyberPoet
            I haven't forgotten about what you said regarding the helicoils. The dealer says he puts those on "all the time" and hasn't had any problems with them.

            I figured I'd try it. If it doesn't work, I can always order a new pan and the fumoto valve ($22.95+$12.00 to get it here tomorrow!).

            Incidentally, the fumoto website doesn't even mention using this on bikes. Not that that is necessarily an issue, but I figured it would be easy for them to say something about it.

            Desperation to ride may be affecting things too.

            Comment


            • #21
              look at it this way, install the helicoil as a temp fix... when you go to do next oil change, change pan and all
              The helicoil will not fail if you never take the drain bolt out after it is installed. (your mileage may vary..)
              I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity. -- Edgar Allan Poe

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by paperairplane
                look at it this way, install the helicoil as a temp fix... when you go to do next oil change, change pan and all
                The helicoil will not fail if you never take the drain bolt out after it is installed. (your mileage may vary..)
                The implication being the helicoil doesn't hold up too well to the drain bolt being removed and re-installed repeatedly?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by nurider
                  Incidentally, the fumoto website doesn't even mention using this on bikes. Not that that is necessarily an issue, but I figured it would be easy for them to say something about it.

                  Desperation to ride may be affecting things too.
                  That's because they don't have the experience cross-referencing the bolt size on bikes, so they don't have a list. I went through a couple 14mm Fumoto's before I figured out that it was M14-1.25 (and not M14-1.5).

                  Originally posted by nurider
                  The implication being the helicoil doesn't hold up too well to the drain bolt being removed and re-installed repeatedly?
                  Correct. Helicoils are spring coils with razor bits on the back-side (to bite the metal) and a triangular taper on the front to hold the screw. In theory, they hold forever. In reality, with oil passing through, differences in metal expansion rates for the pan & bolt, etc., they don't tend to survive indefinitely in aluminum oil pans -- they tend to back out over time with repeated bolt removal. On something like a head bolt, it's a non-issue, because the bolt isn't drenched in oil and isn't removed regularly; the same can't be said about the oil drain bolt.

                  One thing I figured out at the rally: with the fumoto, you can drain your oil hot without burning yourself like you would with a standard plug, as well as being able to doing a single liter oil swap (drain a liter, add a liter). I swapped a single liter every 1k miles, just to make sure at least some of the oil was fresh enough for the trip after being abused at the gap

                  Cheers
                  =-= The CyberPoet
                  Remember The CyberPoet

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
                    Originally posted by nurider
                    Incidentally, the fumoto website doesn't even mention using this on bikes. Not that that is necessarily an issue, but I figured it would be easy for them to say something about it.
                    That's because they don't have the experience cross-referencing the bolt size on bikes, so they don't have a list. I went through a couple 14mm Fumoto's before I figured out that it was M14-1.25 (and not M14-1.5).
                    I think you already said the pre98s and the 98+s are the same in this regard, correct?


                    Originally posted by The CyberPoet
                    Originally posted by nurider
                    The implication being the helicoil doesn't hold up too well to the drain bolt being removed and re-installed repeatedly?
                    Correct. Helicoils are spring coils with razor bits on the back-side (to bite the metal) and a triangular taper on the front to hold the screw. In theory, they hold forever. In reality, with oil passing through, differences in metal expansion rates for the pan & bolt, etc., they don't tend to survive indefinitely in aluminum oil pans -- they tend to back out over time with repeated bolt removal. On something like a head bolt, it's a non-issue, because the bolt isn't drenched in oil and isn't removed regularly; the same can't be said about the oil drain bolt.

                    One thing I figured out at the rally: with the fumoto, you can drain your oil hot without burning yourself like you would with a standard plug, as well as being able to doing a single liter oil swap (drain a liter, add a liter). I swapped a single liter every 1k miles, just to make sure at least some of the oil was fresh enough for the trip after being abused at the gap
                    Not intended to challenge what you're saying: I don't dislike the thought of using the helicoil now to see how it behaves. I am really thinking of swapping out the drain plug with the fumoto - maybe at the next oil change. If either the drain plug or the fumoto are held back by the helicoil leaking, I can alway use either of them with the new pan - which is the final fallback.

                    All I need to do now is not strip the 6 bolts holding the pan in place ......

                    By the way, is it possible to drop only the exhaust on one side to remove the oil pan bolts and slide the pan out?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nurider
                      I think you already said the pre98s and the 98+s are the same in this regard, correct?
                      I said I think they're the same. Either cross check RonAyers for part numbers (should be identical) or verify through someone else who has access to both bikes (SpecialK?)...


                      Originally posted by nurider
                      By the way, is it possible to drop only the exhaust on one side to remove the oil pan bolts and slide the pan out?
                      Not on the 98+ and I would guess not on the pre-98's either. If you don't disassemble the exhaust (i.e. - don't separate the mid-pipe from the header), it should be no issue to drop the whole thing readily.

                      Cheers
                      =-= The CyberPoet
                      Remember The CyberPoet

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Ok, after a fair amount of learning & discovery, and unscrewing (man, those fairings aren't the quickest things to take off), the fairings are off, the pipes/exhaust are off, the bolts holding the pan are all loose, and the oil lines from the cooler are disconnected from the pan.

                        The pan itself, however, does not want to move. I think it may just be the gasket and the sealcreated holding it in place. Anything else possible? I tapped it with a rubber mallet to see if it would get dislodged, but nothing happened. I thought of using a screwdriver to wedge between the block and the pan, but that would be a good way to gouge the metal.

                        Ideas, anyone?

                        Also discovered how much ugliness the fairings cover up - but that's the idea, so no issue there. I just won't be riding much with the fairings off.

                        Thanks again.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Seems like a good time to grab some dinner, and then continue into the wee hours of the night.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by nurider
                            The pan itself, however, does not want to move. I think it may just be the gasket and the sealcreated holding it in place. Anything else possible? I tapped it with a rubber mallet to see if it would get dislodged, but nothing happened. I thought of using a screwdriver to wedge between the block and the pan, but that would be a good way to gouge the metal.

                            Ideas, anyone?
                            Double check the bolts, you may have missed one that's not on the periphreal of the pan (?). I know that's often the case in the 98+. If you are sure you have all the bolts out, just grab it and yank straight down, or use a small screwdriver and work around the edges. The stock gasket is just fiber-paper and has no rubberized gasket material on it unless someone else screwed with it after it left the factory.

                            Cheers
                            =-= The CyberPoet
                            Remember The CyberPoet

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The CyberPoet
                              Originally posted by nurider
                              Incidentally, the fumoto website doesn't even mention using this on bikes. Not that that is necessarily an issue, but I figured it would be easy for them to say something about it.
                              That's because they don't have the experience cross-referencing the bolt size on bikes, so they don't have a list. I went through a couple 14mm Fumoto's before I figured out that it was M14-1.25 (and not M14-1.5).
                              I just got an email back from fumoto:

                              "Dear Nurider

                              Thank you for your inquiry of July 28.

                              Asking about the valve applications for Suzuki Katana motorcycle,
                              we do not have any specialized application for motorcycle, but the size of
                              plug for all Suzuki engines are 14mm - 1.5, it should be fitted with our
                              part#F106(Not F111).

                              As you know, the motorcycle engine is designed different from car engine,
                              there might be some difficulties like which the engine part hits the lever
                              of valve when it open and close due to the lack of space, also the low
                              ground clearance and so on.
                              The dimension of F106 valve is 7/8" in length and the body of valve
                              needs at least a radius of 1" from center of plug hole at the base.

                              Because of stripped threads, please fix the threads before installing the
                              Valve.

                              We appreciate your interest in Engine Oil Drain Valve.

                              Best regards,

                              YM International Company
                              On-line Distributor of Fumoto Oil Drain Valve
                              www.fumotovalve.com

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <Nurider>
                              To: <info@fumotovalve.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 6:53 AM
                              Subject: Merchant Feedback


                              > Nurider says:
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              > I'm looking to use an F111 on the oil drain for a 1997 Suzuki GSX600F
                              (Katana) motorcycle. The threads, on the pan itself, are stripped. I'm
                              planning to use a helicoil insert to re-do the threads.
                              > After that I'd like to install an F111, or maybe install the F111 later.
                              > Any problem with doing this?
                              > Thanks

                              Just wanted to share it.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by The CyberPoet
                                Originally posted by nurider
                                The pan itself, however, does not want to move. I think it may just be the gasket and the sealcreated holding it in place. Anything else possible? I tapped it with a rubber mallet to see if it would get dislodged, but nothing happened. I thought of using a screwdriver to wedge between the block and the pan, but that would be a good way to gouge the metal.

                                Ideas, anyone?
                                Double check the bolts, you may have missed one that's not on the periphreal of the pan (?). I know that's often the case in the 98+. If you are sure you have all the bolts out, just grab it and yank straight down, or use a small screwdriver and work around the edges. The stock gasket is just fiber-paper and has no rubberized gasket material on it unless someone else screwed with it after it left the factory.

                                Cheers
                                =-= The CyberPoet
                                CP to the rescue!
                                I'm off to the garage to check if I missed any bolts. After that, screwdriver mania ....

                                Thanks.

                                Comment

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