Battery question

[Cheech]

I had purchased a replacement Yuasa YTX9-BS battery about a year and a half ago for the Kat. During this time, it spent a considerable amount of its life on a battery tender with no load. When I was rebuilding the bike, I had swapped it out for the dead OEM Yuasa where it discharged a few times (the the point of no lights on ON, bike totally dead) It did get hit once or twice by a battery charger for cars set to 75amp engine start.

Now that the backstory is out of the way, I've been keeping this on a battery tender (a proper one, 1.25A) and I haven't had a problem on initial startup for my last 3-4 rides. Went on a 20 minute ride, left the bike off for less than an hour. Left from there 15 minutes to get some food, in and out in 10 minutes, Kat won't turn over. Starter motor chugs slowly, then gets progressively slower until it does completely. Dash lights dim as well. Had it on the battery tender overnight, battery reads 12.4 volts on OFF after it settled from removing the tender. Bike turned over, but since the engine was cold it died due to improper choke. Starter would not turn over one a second attempt, same symptoms as above.

My question is, did I blow a glass pack in the battery on a ride, or was it a combined problem of hitting it with the 75A plus multiple deep discharges that sucked my cold cranking amps? Also, would it be worthwhile for me to get a larger capacity battery? I read from CP's site there are a few that will fit the compartment that have larger capacity and more CCA's.

[DumbLuck]

is that a sealed equivilent to the standard 14ah battery the Kats call for? once you get her running throw a meter on the battery to be sure it's charging properly. should be above 12.5v, ideally, 13.5v. the alternators really dont start kickin out amperage/voltage till the 4k rpm range

[rexazz2]

completely dead and hitting with a 75amp boost function will conciderabley shorten it's life
I say replace with new and use the Battery tender as intended

[Cheech]

completely dead and hitting with a 75amp boost function will conciderabley shorten it's life
I say replace with new and use the Battery tender as intended

That's what I ended up doing. Went with a Yuasa YTX14S, it barely fit inside the battery compartment, but that's probably a good thing to prevent excess bumping. Hit it with the multimeter this morning, 13.2V stable all day long. Cranks right up.

[The CyberPoet]

As long as you keep it plugged up to a charger when not ridden, that battery ought to last 3 - 5 years...

Each deep discharge kills the remaining total storage capacity by 25 - 40%, so there's your answer on the old battery. Do that 3+ times, and it may not have the juice to turn over the bike.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[Cheech]

As long as you keep it plugged up to a charger when not ridden, that battery ought to last 3 - 5 years...

Each deep discharge kills the remaining total storage capacity by 25 - 40%, so there's your answer on the old battery. Do that 3+ times, and it may not have the juice to turn over the bike.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

I remember you saying that before, and that plus the 75A hits led me to believe that it finally bought it.

Once I got the replacement, I left it on the tender for a few hours until it was charged (90% or so), immediately took it from there and installed it on the bike where I put the tender back on it overnight. Is there anything else I should be doing to it as far as initial conditioning goes? I understand it's a little easier since I didn't have to initially put in the acid like the OEM, but I thought I'd ask.

[Kreylyn]

Once I got the replacement, I left it on the tender for a few hours until it was charged (90% or so), immediately took it from there and installed it on the bike where I put the tender back on it overnight. Is there anything else I should be doing to it as far as initial conditioning goes? I understand it's a little easier since I didn't have to initially put in the acid like the OEM, but I thought I'd ask.

Just a note with batteries...

Leaving a battery directly on Concrete floors, or directly on the ground will leach the charge out of a battery, and shorten it's life as well. You didn't specify where it was left when on the tender, but if it was out of the bike, be sure to not put it directly on anything that can ground out. Use a board, bucket, something that is not conductive to set it on.

Krey

[Cheech]

Just a note with batteries...

Leaving a battery directly on Concrete floors, or directly on the ground will leach the charge out of a battery, and shorten it's life as well. You didn't specify where it was left when on the tender, but if it was out of the bike, be sure to not put it directly on anything that can ground out. Use a board, bucket, something that is not conductive to set it on.

Krey

Interesting. It was set on my metal toolbox (plastic wheels) for the majority, then on a cardboard box for about a hour all while on the charger.

[The CyberPoet]

Just a note with batteries...

Leaving a battery directly on Concrete floors, or directly on the ground will leach the charge out of a battery...

I was taught the same thing in the military, but then was lambasted by users here at KR (or possibly at KP prior to KP) who showed me [technical references] that the belief was outdated and reflected a technology level in the case-design-materials that is now 40+ years out of date.

Directly from the Yuasa FAQ:

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/faqs.php?action=1&id=20

Q: I was told by some old timers that if you leave a battery on the ground or a concrete floor it will ruin the battery. Is this true?

A: That is something a lot of "old timers" say. The reason they say that is in the "olden days" vehicle starting batteries used to be made with a hard rubber container. This hard rubber would eventually get mini cracks and become porous. So, when placing a battery on the ground or concrete, the battery would discharge through the ground or wet concrete. Nowadays, containers are made from a solid plastic that does not allow any current to flow through it, so the batteries do not discharge, even if they sit in a few inches of water. That is why you will not find your battery having trouble from sitting on the ground or concrete.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[Kreylyn]

I was taught the same thing in the military, but then was lambasted by users here at KR (or possibly at KP prior to KP) who showed me [technical references] that the belief was outdated and reflected a technology level in the case-design-materials that is now 40+ years out of date.

Directly from the Yuasa FAQ:

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/faqs.php?action=1&id=20

Q: I was told by some old timers that if you leave a battery on the ground or a concrete floor it will ruin the battery. Is this true?

A: That is something a lot of "old timers" say. The reason they say that is in the "olden days" vehicle starting batteries used to be made with a hard rubber container. This hard rubber would eventually get mini cracks and become porous. So, when placing a battery on the ground or concrete, the battery would discharge through the ground or wet concrete. Nowadays, containers are made from a solid plastic that does not allow any current to flow through it, so the batteries do not discharge, even if they sit in a few inches of water. That is why you will not find your battery having trouble from sitting on the ground or concrete.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

Well, speaking from experiance I have the following question.

Why does the same bike battery die in less than 5 days on a concrete floor, yet holds a charge on the bike sitting for months?

Also...

New car battery out of vehicle for 2 weeks on concrete floor, also now dead (at my cousins shop 3 days ago, he is painting the car, and a few others come over to use the shop like I do. Someone moved the battery in the corner off the catch pail he set it on, and left it on the floor. He didn't notice and we went to swap it out with another battery.... it's dead.)

Everytime I find a battery on a concrete floor, it's dead. Other say it doens't matter, but I've never seen one last.

So... any ideas?

Krey

[The CyberPoet]

[Reasons they actually die on the floor]
So... any ideas?

I have zero clue, unless the electron loss through the air's humidity to the ground is large enough (in which case, it'd do the same from pole-to-pole even if it was elevated and on wood, right?)

Actually, I can think of one cause that *might* drain batteries (but it would be irrelevant of being on the floor or on a shelf, and it still should take weeks for a fully-charged battery): if the air handling equipment is specifically drawing electrons out for some reason such as static control equipment for painting operations... Some electrons will always bunch up on the terminal and some of those may escape to the air -- how fast that happens is influenced by a variety of factors, including whether the terminal has a good coating of dielectric grease (usually missing where the connectors were bolted on when it comes to used batteries), and the electric potential of the air and the humidity levels...

In a paint shop booth, the wet paint in the air might also increase the drain to ground by providing a viable path for discharge Some of the chemistry floating around might also start some sort of chemical reaction at the terminals that consumes electrons in a cathode-anode style reaction... But I'm getting in over my head here

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[Kreylyn]

I have zero clue, unless the electron loss through the air's humidity to the ground is large enough (in which case, it'd do the same from pole-to-pole even if it was elevated and on wood, right?)

Actually, I can think of one cause that *might* drain batteries (but it would be irrelevant of being on the floor or on a shelf, and it still should take weeks for a fully-charged battery): if the air handling equipment is specifically drawing electrons out for some reason such as static control equipment for painting operations... Some electrons will always bunch up on the terminal and some of those may escape to the air -- how fast that happens is influenced by a variety of factors, including whether the terminal has a good coating of dielectric grease (usually missing where the connectors were bolted on when it comes to used batteries), and the electric potential of the air and the humidity levels...

In a paint shop booth, the wet paint in the air might also increase the drain to ground by providing a viable path for discharge Some of the chemistry floating around might also start some sort of chemical reaction at the terminals that consumes electrons in a cathode-anode style reaction... But I'm getting in over my head here

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

I understand what your saying there...

I guess not really knowing why, but that they do is enough for me to avoid doing it at this time. It's not that big a thing to think for 2 seconds where to place them if they are out.

Krey

[wicked1z]

I also see a lot of dead batteries at my shop if left on the floor. But if we put a peice of wood under it all is good.

[rexazz2]

I just pulled the original battery out of my 01 honda only cause I figuered it had to fail soon
It goes pretty much 365 days of the year , very rare for it not to be run

I wonder if the concrete has something to do with temperature , concrete is always cold

[The CyberPoet]

I guess not really knowing why, but that they do is enough for me to avoid doing it at this time.

Funny thing is that old habits die hard -- I don't put them on concrete (or metal shelves) either, but now I realize there's no basis for my habits

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet