93 600 Elec Prob Revisited...FRUSTERATING - Help plz

[benchfalco]

Well, I THOUGHT I had spark....I can get a little white spark with some new plugs, grounded on the frame.

THE FRUSTERATION GOES ON....


93 gsx600F katana
One day while riding normally, my bike suddenly lost power. It didn't stall, but it felt like it was only firing on 3 cyls., for example. Then after a matter of seconds the problem corrected itself and I rode the short trip home. After parking the bike for the night, I went out the next day, only to sadly discover that my baby had no heartbeat. It just wouldn't start.....no spark
I was surprised at this since this was just a day or two after I got back from a motorcycle trip with a buddy where we drove a couple thousand km, and the bike never acted up once.

BATTERY INFO:--I killed the battery running the starter. Then I charged the battery. And tested the electrical system (coils, pickup coil). Everything was within the specified ranges. So, I figure it's a bad battery. BUT, after installing a new battery I still had no spark.
ALSO PLEASE NOTE: The battery that was installed in the bike (prior to when I got it) was not the 'appropriate' battery, it was much larger than normal (the battery holder was cut to fit it) --- but 12V is 12V right? Could this have caused the problem in the first place?-- currently I have the specified battery installed.

I tested for spark by grounding a plug against the frame. I tested both coils and all four plugs and wires, but NEITHER coil had any 'significant' spark (each coil tested within specified resistances - secondary and primary). It seems highly unlikely that both ignition coils should fail at the exact same time, and the only spark I get is a tiny white/yellow, like I spoke of above.

So where can the problem be?
I cleaned my ground connections (at least the one's I'm aware of)

Perhaps the problem lies somewhere around the signal generator rotor?!? --can this part just "burn out" suddenly? But it's telling the system when to fire...so it should still be 'good' right?!?!?
-All my fuses are A-OK.
-All lights work as normal....but the high beam indicator has always been iffy (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't)
-I bought a "new" (from a '92) CDI and wireharness, coils etc., from ebay that I'm going to mess around with, but I would really just like to end the frusteration and know what the problem is. -- I tried these, but the results are the same as with original equipment

Do these bikes have fusible links anywhere?

Would a dealer have a useful test for this?

Could the CDI be fried?

I AM LOST...somebody please help me (again)

[Black_peter]

Cyber??
Jump in when I get lost. I'm banging this out in the clean room and the bunny suit and ALCVD tool are a distraction!!

1)
If batteries were batteries there would just be the one right?? one size, one type...

2)
I'm not aware of fusable links on the Kat.
cyber??
However they are usually on high load items:
Starter, lights etc.

3)
The ignition package (signal gen, CDI all that stuff)
is solid state. It does "just burn out".
It can also give you problems at cold temps or problems at hot temps.
(cracks or failing solder joints can make or break as things expand/ contract)

a)
If you get some spark running the starter the
signal generator could be ok, it can also be failing "at speed".

b)
The CDI circuit could have a short and the coils arnt dumping right.
The voltage of the spark, brightness, color and heat, is a function of how fast the coil dumps (collapses in tech speak). The primary coil is charged w/ 12 volts, then that voltage is dumped to ground, by transistors or points. This "collapse" induces high voltage (a function of time as above and the number of windings) in the "secondary" coil. It it this secondary coil that leads to the spark plug. If the resistance is good on the coils and when hooked to the system they do not exibit shorts, look at the wires, this voltage is in the tens of thousands of volts. This high tension voltage can bridge the gap in the spark plug so it can "seep" out a bad plug wire (or a bad plug) robbing the plug of juice.

4) a dealer should have a test box for the CDI.
See if they will test the E-Bay box as well.

I'll try to read this post again and get some more info from it. But right now I need to attend to my wafers..

Take it away Cyberpoet!!

[benchfalco]

4) a dealer should have a test box for the CDI.
See if they will test the E-Bay box as well.
[quote]

I stopped in at a dealer today and explained my situation....I even told them about all the tests I performed and explained to them all the details that is here on this post....they said that they can't really check the CDI, and they'll have to start from scratch to attempt to diagnose the problem.
I feel like I'll just be paying a dealer for information I already know.

I'm hoping that someone out there will chime in with information about a similar problem that might have happened to them....

(fingers crossed)

[mystahagy]

I had an almost identical problem about a year ago. Went through all the same stuff, and ended up at a point where I was going to take the CDI in for testing. I noticed on all the terminals there was SLIGHT corrosion, just a little white powdery stuff. I cleaned all the terminals of the CDI and the plugs on the harness the best I could, put some dielectric grease on each one and VROOM! It took two weeks to figure this one out. I tested every major component and I was tracing each wire for a short, but it all checked out. All that was left was a faulty CDI or crappy connections. Turned out to be crappy connections.

[The CyberPoet]

Re: 93 600 Elec Prob Revisited...FRUSTERATING - Help plz

93 gsx600F katana
One day while riding normally, my bike suddenly lost power. It didn't stall, but it felt like it was only firing on 3 cyls., for example. Then after a matter of seconds the problem corrected itself and I rode the short trip home. After parking the bike for the night, I went out the next day, only to sadly discover that my baby had no heartbeat. It just wouldn't start.....no spark
I was surprised at this since this was just a day or two after I got back from a motorcycle trip with a buddy where we drove a couple thousand km, and the bike never acted up once.

Sounds like the plug(s) fouled...
Not uncommon on plugs that just took a journey of a couple thousand KM... or if the choke cable is sticking/binding/broke (again, common directly following a journey of that distance, because it can be hammered between the gas tank and the cross-bar over the valve covers).
And that the existing battery cooked off... Again, a common occurance on a trip this length if the charging system is over-charging or you didn't keep an eye on the battery water levels during the journey. Remember that cold makes batteries weak for the duration of the cold, but heat and vibration are what kill a battery's storage potential permanently (in addition to running it down too often -- chemical death).

BATTERY INFO:--I killed the battery running the starter. Then I charged the battery. And tested the electrical system (coils, pickup coil). Everything was within the specified ranges. So, I figure it's a bad battery. BUT, after installing a new battery I still had no spark.
ALSO PLEASE NOTE: The battery that was installed in the bike (prior to when I got it) was not the 'appropriate' battery, it was much larger than normal (the battery holder was cut to fit it) --- but 12V is 12V right? Could this have caused the problem in the first place?-- currently I have the specified battery installed.

A slightly too-large a battery normally won't do damages, but a significantly larger battery will act as a drain from the charging system, overheating the rectifier/IC pack (voltage regulator) and possibly denying the other parts of the system from getting enough juice.

You know that even brand new batteries have to be charged up to work, right? When you dump the acid in a new battery, it's about at 1/3rd charge...

I tested for spark by grounding a plug against the frame. I tested both coils and all four plugs and wires, but NEITHER coil had any 'significant' spark (each coil tested within specified resistances - secondary and primary). It seems highly unlikely that both ignition coils should fail at the exact same time, and the only spark I get is a tiny white/yellow, like I spoke of above.

If you are getting any spark at all, then the CDI is OK and the coils are OK (which you already knew based on the resistance tests of the coils). Thus, the question is why is the system not getting adequate power -- again, I ask, did you charge the new battery up all the way before proceding?

So where can the problem be?
I cleaned my ground connections (at least the one's I'm aware of)

Clean as many as you can find, including all the pigtail connectors all over the bike (esp. the ones to the left and right of the battery compartment), the battery terminal leads, the CDI/Ignitor leads, the coil connectors. You could also have spark plug wires that have seen better days...

Do these bikes have fusible links anywhere?

The pre-98's should have fuses (standard) plus a breaker (big red button) somewhere around the battery area -- someone with a pre-98 should be able to tell you where the breaker is. Question: is it possible one of the safety interlocks is keeping the bike from starting correctly (probably not, since you're getting a weak spark -- which again implies problems with the voltage level getting to the electronics)...

KNOW THIS:
for electrical spades you can get at, the best way to clean them is to rub a clean pencil eraser over them -- it will wipe away corrosion and dirt in a jiffy. For the rest, use a spray electrical contact cleaner and a tooth brush, or a small piece of very fine emory cloth.
until you can get the bike started, unplug the headlight bulb(s). This will help keep from draining the battery during and between start attempts.

CyberPoet's Motorcycle Charging System Diagnostics at MotorcycleAnchor.com
Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[Black_peter]

NOTE:
A few weeks ago I disconnected every connector
checked them for oxidation and added a liberal amount of di-lectric grease. For the hour or two it took it added tons of confidence in my connectors and brought to light some dirty (IE high K) connections. High K (high resistance) connections can cause multiple problems. High current which equals high heat that can melt the connector housing. Intermittent contact that can cause arcing and further degridation of the connector.
Faulty operation as mystahagy saw.
A little love goes a long way here.

It didn't stall, but it felt like it was only firing on 3 cyls., for example. Then after a matter of seconds the problem corrected itself and I rode the short trip home.

This indicates a funky connection. Or again a bad plug. Any problem that comes and goes is heat/vibration related. Remember that the plug wires on this bike live a hard life.
Traped in a box made from the frame, gas tank and engine they see little fresh air and lots of heat.
Further they are surrounded by grounding points.
As I stated before this voltage (HT from the coil)
can really go. In diagnosing a faulty plug in my car last night I was able to ground my plug wire to the
radiator hose and get a nice hot spark. A crack in the wire or a split boot
will "spill" the HT voltage all over .

[benchfalco]

I have a new set of plugs....I'll kick myself if that's all it is, because I've been waiting 'til I get all working properly to install them. If the plugs are to blame I'll be happy that the prob is solved, but angry at myself for not swapping them MONTHS ago...

I was looking at some di-electric grease the other day....I'll have to go back and pick some up for sure...

I'll let you guys know, asap, how the progress goes.

Thanks again everyone!!

[The CyberPoet]

One other thought that comes to mind:

When you tested the coils for their resistance values, did you test twice -- once after blowing on them with a hair dryer for a minute or three? Coils often act differently cold than hot.

Meanwhile, I'm still inclined to believe fouled plugs or battery weak.

Good Luck!
=-= The CyberPoet

[SweetLou]

Did you just ask if he blew his coils????

[Black_peter]

One other thought that comes to mind:

When you tested the coils for their resistance values, did you test twice -- once after blowing on them with a hair dryer for a minute or three? Coils often act differently cold than hot.

Meanwhile, I'm still inclined to believe fouled plugs or battery weak.

Good Luck!
=-= The CyberPoet

Damn.. How did we miss that the first time??

[benchfalco]

I did not warm the coils according to spec (by running the engine for a short period).
As some of you know I have two extra coils; these two were stored indoors and were at room temperature when checked. The other pair that were on the bike were at outdoor temperatures which would have been comparable to 'room' temp. And all four coils checked out the same.
BUT I'll have to try the 'heating' method just to be sure that I didn't fudge the test in the first place....I did however test mulitple times for each individual coil, to ensure results were consistent (they were)....but if the test was flawed from the begining then what's the use of consistent flawed results.....

The battery should be fine. I had the shop charge it appropriately, prior to pick-up and subsequent installation. I've also kept a trickle charger on-hand to replenish my occasional "okay, try it now" starter-draining-the-battery checks.

Tonight I'm Going to install new plugs, clean some more terminals and apply some dielectric grease to the contact points. Hopfully I'll have some good news to share in a couple days....

[Special K]

I'd say your signal generator needs to be checked..............go by the manual or PM me for details from mine.

CDI is 2nd suspect in my book. On the early Kats, they can output weak signal..............

But I DEFINITELY would install new plugs and make DARN sure that battery is not only the specified one but fully charged.

THEN test everything!

Also, FYI: Test your coils at each side or end: For primary and secondary resistance. I've never yet found a fault with the difference between hot an cold coils..........if they're bad they're bad, and if they're good.......

[Fast Glass]

Good luck getting any dealer to have a CDI tester. I had problems with mine a few years back, and none of the dealers around me even knew they existed. Guess they just shotgun parts till the problems fixed. Anyway, definately swap out the plugs. Check to make sure they're gapped properly too.
From Special K's post, the signal generator should be under the R/H frame cover. Look for the two wire connector with a yellow, and a black wire. Measure resistance across the generator side. It should be 130-180 ohms. If its higher or lower that indicates a problem and should be replaced. Also, you should check all the wiring in the ignition system for opens or shorts. Fairly simple but often overlooked in favor of swapping parts. If you need wiring diagrams, I can email them to you. Shoot me a pm if you want them. My manual is for a '93 750, but the 600 should be the same.

[benchfalco]

I've got my own shop manual I've been using more religiously than ... well... the bible. But thanks for the offer(s)

All electrical connections have been cleaned, new plugs.
I tested the sig rotor last year and it measured the proper resistances. The coils also tested equally well.

My thinking is that if the beginning and end of the electronic system is okay....I'm pretty much just left with a shot CDI sitting in the middle. crap crap crap!!! -- I guess I just never wanted to face the fact that it's likely a cdi issue....but what makes me hesitate to STILL believe that that's the sole problem, is that some spark is still getting through, plus when the problem began the bike did not instantly die....it hesitated for a bit, then sprang back to life....I would think that means a bad connection somewhere, but I haven't been able to find anything in my adventures so far.

Anybody have an extra CDI kicking around that will fit an 89-97 600? Ideally I would first like to use it for a system check and THEN I'd buy it if it's what my bike needs for a heart beat.
I'll pay for the postage etc and all that, so there would be absolutely no cost to you.....Plus afterward you'd have friend for life! :P

Thanks for all the tips!!

...the process continues...

[Special K]

Good luck getting any dealer to have a CDI tester...........

True!

My manual is for a '93 750, but the 600 should be the same.

There ARE differences............