Ratlle can and general painting questions.

[zleviticus]

Ok i am in the process of painting my cowl.. here is what i have done thus far and will be followed by the questions i had.

ok I ordered my cowl from BraadaJim and got it. Unlik his normal professional primered i asked for it plain. This allowed me to sand the plastic down some and do any necessary trimmign that i might have to do to the cowl.

With the fit right (after sitting on the bike for a couple days.) I sanded the plastic with 400 Grit sand paper.. then 800 grit.

When that was completed i washed the part (ok rubbed it down with a cloth) then used a tack cloth to make sure all the dust and such is off of the cowl. Then i primed the part with a few coats of primer (filler and sandable) i then sanded between coats with 400 grit sand paper. The last coat i sanded with 800 grit. Then i applied a few coats fo the base color (black) after that was completed i wet sanded the coats with 1000 grit sand paper. I applied one final coat of base coat.

Now for the questions:
Should i sand the cowl with 1000 - 1500 and 2000 before i apply a clear coat (multiple to the cowl) to remove some fo the orange peel before the clear goes on?

Once the clear goes on do i again sand with 1000 -1500 - 2000 to remove any additional orange peel?

Do i not sand the base again and just apply the clear and then sand to get rid of the orange peel?

Once and if i wet sand the cowl after the clears will hand buffing the part suffice with a heavy/mild/light rubbing compound to bring the shine back to the part after all the sanding?

Do i need to start the sanding with 800 wet? then progress up? or start with 1000 grit?

Thanks,
Z

[SEQX34]

when i painted mine, i only used 800,1500,2000 grit sand paper and always wet sand(never dry) even when i was just applying the primer.

800 - 2 coats primer/filler
1500 - 4 coats base color
2000 - 3 coats clear

all are wet sand with running water. I also used all Laquer Base Paints (even on the primer/filler) Make sure you dont mix Enamel with Laquer, otherwise your bound to do it all over again! Goodluck Z (I'm sure your "BEST BUD" Duffy will chime in this thread soon) to give you some "Tips from a Pro"

[SEQX34]

I forgot to say that for buffing the clear, i used Zymol Talon 2. I also use it to wax the whole bike, its made for MC and they claim to be fuel resistant (never had any issues with it so far). just remember you have to let the paint bake in the sun for atleast a week or 2 (i did for a week) before buffing it. heres the link to Zymol

http://fp.zymol.com/talon2.htm

[zleviticus]

ok when you sanded the base and clear did you sand till the whole thing was matte (ie no matte and shiny) . What did you do to buff out the clear after the last coat? or did you not sand after the last coat of clear?

[BraadaJim]

My whole bike...... 220, filler primer, 400, sealer primer, 600, base, allow to tack 'bout 30 minutes, clear, allow to tack 'bout 20 minutes, clear. Let it dry for 2 weeks then wet sand with 1500, buff with 3M Imperial microfinishing compound on rotary minibuffer using fine wool pad, followed by 3M perfect-It II Finesse-It dark glaze. Wait 1 month then wax... still waiting to do the wax but that's another story you already know. Anyway, I think mine came out pretty good with the exception of where my dum-bass burned through it with the buffer in a couple spots.
Wetsanding between coats is going to be entirely dependant upon how well you lay down the color. I try to lay paint on thick enough that it flows but not runs. Normally it will flow and level enough that wetsanding is not needed of the color coat. You are laying black though so chances are you will want to wetsand between color coats. Clear ALWAYS needs wet sanded to bring up the shine.

[zleviticus]

Is the wait time of wet sanding and buffing dependant upon the cure time of the paint? For instance on the dupli-color that i am using the clear coat says to wait 48 hours then you can buff it.

Ok here is the plan going forward..

Sand down again with 800 wet to get rid of the rest of the orange peel that i have from the last base coat. Apply another thicker coat of base. Let it set up for an hour or so (as instructed on the can) then wet sand with 1500 to remove some of the orange peel that might have come up. Lay down a coat of clear. Wet with 2000. Clear 2000, clear 2000, clear.. let it rest for a week then hit it with 1500.. and buff it out using the compounds i have for when i did the camaro this last time.

Need to find a rotary buffer that is small enough to buff with.

ohh how do you know when you have wet sanded enough? when the whole thing has a slight mate finish to it? versus the shiny with matte bumps

[BraadaJim]

Is the wait time of wet sanding and buffing dependant upon the cure time of the paint? For instance on the dupli-color that i am using the clear coat says to wait 48 hours then you can buff it.

Generally speaking you need to wait AT LEAST as long as the manf. suggests. Their recommendations though are meant for people who "know" what they are doing. Fresh paint is extremely easy to burn right through when sanding or buffing so the sooner you start the easier it is going to be to F up. Go VERY easy or you get to redo it.

Ok here is the plan going forward..

Sand down again with 800 wet to get rid of the rest of the orange peel that i have from the last base coat. Apply another thicker coat of base. Let it set up for an hour or so (as instructed on the can) then wet sand with 1500 to remove some of the orange peel that might have come up. Lay down a coat of clear. Wet with 2000. Clear 2000, clear 2000, clear.. let it rest for a week then hit it with 1500.. and buff it out using the compounds i have for when i did the camaro this last time.

Sounds like a pretty good plan but I personally would give it 24 hours before wet sanding regardless of what the can says. Again, the fresher the paint the easier it is to burn through. Also you may not want to sand between clears, just let them tack. Clear has a funny way of crinkling up or raising after it dries and you try to put anything on top of it, even more of the same. The objsect is to get the clear on nice and heavy so that you have something to sand away. By just letting it tack, it will grab the next coat instead of reject it and the orange peel will only be in the top coat anyway so it's the only one you really need to sand.

Need to find a rotary buffer that is small enough to buff with.

If you pay the shipping and have an air compressor you can borrow mine. Shipping will be about $8. It's a Chicago Pnuematics 3" rotary that is perfect for bike parts and all the angles you need to get. If you just want to buy a new toy you can get them off eBay for about $80, run a search for "mini poisher" and look for the CP units in the red case. (CP makes most of the air tools on the market BTW and then they are marketed under different names)

ohh how do you know when you have wet sanded enough? when the whole thing has a slight mate finish to it? versus the shiny with matte bumps

Exactly, when it is dull and smooth you have gone far enough. Anywhere you see dimples that shine you will see in the final product and it will distort the paints "mirror" or "wet" appearance.[/quote]

[kahluamud]

Personally, I do not wet sand after the base coat. If you create runs or scratches or see blemishes, sure, sand it, but if not, you are wasting your time. I would suggest that once you get the first coat of paint on, only sand when needed. Then, you will need to sand the final Clear Coat.

As Jim said, You will burn right through the paint when you buff, so maybe an extra coat of clear or a more mild compound will help.

If you wetsand the final clear coat just enough to eliminate the texture, buff with mild compound, you should have no problems.

Black is a hard color, because all blemishes show.
Main thing, sand out problem areas, start painting and forget about sand paper until you are done with the last coat. Generally, Base Coats do not need sanding.

Sorry, everyone has there own way of doing things. Just go with what works for you.

[duff daddy]

Re: Ratlle can and general painting questions.

With the fit right (after sitting on the bike for a couple days.) I sanded the plastic with 400 Grit sand paper.. then 800 grit.

you useually only want 180 grit sand scratches in your metal/plastic for your primer to get a hold of, 800 will be too fine and you wont get the correct mechanical adheasion.

When that was completed i washed the part (ok rubbed it down with a cloth) then used a tack cloth to make sure all the dust and such is off of the cowl.

ok you washed it, you wanna used mild dish soap and water. next use a wax and grease remover to get rid of your finger prints and or any sweat or other oils in the air. the tack cloth is ok.

Then i primed the part with a few coats of primer (filler and sandable) i then sanded between coats with 400 grit sand paper. The last coat i sanded with 800 grit. Then i applied a few coats fo the base color (black) after that was completed i wet sanded the coats with 1000 grit sand paper. I applied one final coat of base coat.

thats ok, personally i would have hit it with 2 coats of primer filler and blocked it flat then hit it with a primer sealer to make it have a flat perfect appearence.

Now for the questions:
Should i sand the cowl with 1000 - 1500 and 2000 before i apply a clear coat (multiple to the cowl) to remove some fo the orange peel before the clear goes on?

i wouldnt, i have never sanded base coat toget rid of orance peel, nor have i had bad orange peel when i spray. i just sand the clear 1000-1500-2000 and then buff it

Once the clear goes on do i again sand with 1000 -1500 - 2000 to remove any additional orange peel?

yea and dont sand though it will be quite easy to sand through, wet sand with soap and water (soap lubricates the paper and prevents scratches)

Do i not sand the base again and just apply the clear and then sand to get rid of the orange peel?

question answered

On

ce and if i wet sand the cowl after the clears will hand buffing the part suffice with a heavy/mild/light rubbing compound to bring the shine back to the part after all the sanding?

yes, when you sand the clear what you are looking for is to get rid of all the highs and lows in the clear coat, so when you sand it you want one uniform serface across the whole cowl, no shiney spots at all, and that will give you a good look, next take out the buffer and hit it with rubbing compund and a wool pad, after all that is done hit it with a foam pad and glaze, that will bring back you shine and get rid of your swirl marks if you did it right

Do i need to start the sanding with 800 wet? then progress up? or start with 1000 grit?

i would start with 1000 thats what ive always done and i havnt gotten bit yet

Thanks,
Z

your welcome duffy

[duff daddy]

oh one thing thta jim said, DONT EVER SAND PRIMER SEALER!!!!!!!! jim if you do that on a car, or even on a bike its over time its gonna loosen up your puddy, or whatever else you got back that, the paint is a porus product and so its gonna create moisture between the panel and the clear and its gonna bubble, your primer sealer is like a seam sealer, it is self leveling so there is never a need to sand it

[BraadaJim]

oh one thing thta jim said, DONT EVER SAND PRIMER SEALER!!!!!!!! jim if you do that on a car, or even on a bike its over time its gonna loosen up your puddy, or whatever else you got back that, the paint is a porus product and so its gonna create moisture between the panel and the clear and its gonna bubble, your primer sealer is like a seam sealer, it is self leveling so there is never a need to sand it

OK, let's correct this for the happy medium so everyone knows what works and what doesn't.

I believe you meant to say DON'T EVER WETSAND PRIMER SEALER, and you would be 100000000% correct because it will suck in that water and then when you actually seal it with paint will come back out in the heat and screw you like a $2 whore. This rule actually applies to raw plastic for the same reason. ABS is pourous and will suck in water and chemicals and then push them out with the heat causing the paint to bubble.
In an actual bodyshop environment you also would never sand your sealer primer so again your statement is correct.

However...... and I've done rounds with people on this before.... the thing to remember here is that this is being done with a rattle can and it is not being done in a clean booth with directional airflow. I've seen Z's place and I'm guessing that he's either working inside a plastic sheeted work area in the garage to protect the cars or is doing this outside which means dust and lots of it. Because of that it becomes necessary to LIGHTLY sand the sealer primer with a high grit to knock that dust (or gnats) down flat before you lay your paint. Otherwise you end up with a speck under your paint that turns to a lump as the layers progress and that becomes a begging point for wear through when you do get to the wetsanding phase. Working outside of a bodyshop or clean environment means that certain extra steps (read:sanding) you would not normally do become necessary to ensure as much dust removal as possible. I think we will agree that if you see it in the primer, you will see it in the paint. Z being less experienced at this though I will add that what I did using 600 on the sealer and a light touch would probably be better done with a grey scotchbrite since he is less familiar with the pressures you can apply without damaging the paint. Still, NO MOISTURE is a key element.

We all do things differently and like KMud said you have to do what works for you. I know MeanStrk freaks out every time he see's me say that I use 80 grit to cut paint off of plastics.... equates it to roadrash I believe but 80,220,fill primer works well for me and has for a long time. Bodyshop rules don't apply 100% to the garage or DIY method in most cases.

[kahluamud]

Well said.

[duff daddy]

yea jim your right, dont wet sand ...

[zleviticus]

Thanks guys lot of information in there.. I will be finishing up the painting today and hopefully ready for wet sanding and then buffing next weekend. Here goes nothing.

[zleviticus]

Thanks for all the help.. here is where we are now..

the cowl is looking real good...

It is now sitting in the garage curing... I have one small run that happened in the last coat of clear so that should be fun to get rid of. Next weekend (maybe) it will be time to wet sand with 1500/2000 and wait after that till i buy my new compressor and the mini polisher. (thanks for the offer jim but iw ill need one for a few spots ont he camaro )