Getting the best handling

[durtyspeed]

People keep saying that gixxers and such can out handle katanas. I believe this, but why? What atributes make them so much better?

I plan to change these. i am already trying to decide on what I want to do fairings wise. And plans for an 1100 or 1200 swap are in the works.

Btw, this is a 94 katana 600.

Thanks again, guys.

[Anonymous]

rake and trail steering geometry weight riding position aerodynamics

[durtyspeed]

Lol, thanks. Coulple of questions though.

1. I am addressing aerodynamics with my body mods.

2. Weight. The katana probably weighs 100 lbs over a 1000 gixxer. My the time you take my weight into account of the average rider(I weigh around 160). That narrows the difference down alot. I think I can easily address this issue some. Although I understand most of the weight is in the frame.

3. Rake and trail steering geometry. Elaborate please. This is the part that I need to figure out how to address.

Keep in mind, I don't need this bike to out handle a gixxer on the course, just get closer. I am going to be swapping my swing arm with a rf900 aluminum one to allow for a wider wheel(5.5"). Any advice to this part.

[Black_peter]

Easy way to make a Kat perform like a GSXR:

1. Take off the gas cap
2. Roll the Kat forward 10 feet.
3. Roll a GSXR under the cap
4. Attach cap.

Done..

To address your points Durtyspeed.

1. Aerodynamics are at 9/10 performance.
As you can see fairings are getting smaller not larger
on hyperbikes (R1s GSXRs)
My naked bike might spank your full faired one
because I have XX pounds stripped off it.

2.
a. your 94 600 weighs 79 pounds more than a 2005 GSXR 1000.

b. See above. you will spend more than the
cost of a nice used GSXR 750 getting the Kat weight down to that of a new GSXR 1000.

3. Rake and trail.
You would be foolish to try and change these.

Rake is the angle of the steering head in relation to the road. You would have to cut and re-weld the frame to change this. The time, effort and tooling required to do it right would "cost" several thousands of dollars.. (see below)

Trail: This is the distance from the contact point of the tire to the imaginary line extending from the steering stem to the ground. Changing this would require machining new triple trees.

So, the cost of a 94 Kat $2500
(kelly blue book)
The cost of changing rake
(that is doing it right!) $750
The cost of changing Trail $350
Wheels $500
Brakes (all parts) $250
Forks $250
(I'm talking Ebay prices here)
Carbon fiber/ Alloy parts to reduce weight
$500 to $15000 so lets just say $500

Retail (kelly blue book again)
2000 GSXR 750 $5400...

Your total that include very little labor
(only in the rake change and trail parts)
$5000..

This does not guarantee that the weight is below the GSXR.
This does not guarantee it will handle as well as a stock Kat 600.
This does not include the extra horse power needed to match a 2000 750 never mind 1000..

If you want a GSXR buy one..
If you want to build a 100% original bike?
Go for it!! Waltari did and its incredible!
But you really are better off buying the GSXR if that is what you want.

[durtyspeed]

Thanks for the advice. I love Waltori's bike. I bought the Kat because I don't want what everyone else has. It seems like a good platform for radical modifications where you don't have to deal with people saying 'why'. I want a custom bike. That is why I have this one. I will take it one leg at a time and slowly get there. I may not go to the radical points of changing rake and such, as this will just be my toy, not a track bike. I just basically want to make it handle better, faster, and look better.
I want people, to look twice and have to figure out what it really is.

[durtyspeed]

What I am thinking this far.

-rf900 swingarm and 5.5" wheel
-r1 front forks/brakes
-1100 gixxer engine or 1200 bandit
-redesigned/custom fairings.

And then a few other small things.

[mystahagy]

Thanks for the advice. I love Waltori's bike. I bought the Kat because I don't want what everyone else has.....I want people, to look twice and have to figure out what it really is.

Those same ideas are very important to me too. I also hate hate hate riding/driving/owning something that everyone else has, even though that makes the aftermarket following ginormous.

Concerning the daunting task you have ahead of yourself:
I was also at a very similar point you are at now, albeit not as extreme as frame mods. I felt that my dollar would be maximized by simply jumping over to a bike that suited my tastes, so I made a decision and went for a bike that I have always loved since I started riding, and got my TILLER! Don't get me wrong I love my kat, but there came a point where I realized that I can't reasonably turn the kat into something entirely different. It's certainly not going to jump classes on my budget. Also, it doesn't sound like the safest thing either. R&D is done for a reason.

[durtyspeed]

I am not going to cut and weld the frame. So I ain't going to change the steering stuff. Just bolt on stuff, except for the fairing mods of course, and the slight mod you have to do in the rear to add the new swing arm.

Btw, the tiller is a bad ass bike.

[mystahagy]

That sounds good bro. I don't know the details of your kat, but I know for mine the BEST thing I ever did for handling was to put STOCK size metzeler Z6's on there. Previous owner had a 170 on the rear (which actually looks narrower). I got that natural arc of the tire back and it felt 100 pounds lighter.

Second I threw on an RF900 shock that I got from Waltari. The stocker was toast, and the RF shock gives me adjustability that the 600's didn't come with. Also it raised the rear just a bit, and turn-in was quicker.

Those are just some other suggestions to think about, they sure do have an awesome bang for the buck! They are normal maintenance items anyways that end up being an upgrade.

[Wingspan]

My $0.02:

1. Get some decent tires in the stock size (forget about the RF swingarm and larger rim)

2. Upgrade the rear shock to something with some adjustability.

3. Respring and valve the forks for your weight.

RIDE.

You'll be much better off spending your time and money improving your own abilities than you will trying to make a Katana handle like a Gixxer.

Enjoy the Katana for what it is, an inexpensive sport tourer. It was never a GSXR and it never will be. No amount of bolt on mods will make up for 20 years of R&D.

[durtyspeed]

I guess that makes sense. Still doesn't mean I don't want to attempt the fairing conversion though. I am going to start with that one first. As is though, I do love it. It is a nice bike.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

[The CyberPoet]

Easy way to make a Kat perform like a GSXR:

1. Take off the gas cap
2. Roll the Kat forward 10 feet.
3. Roll a GSXR under the cap
4. Attach cap.

Done..

OK, here's the low-down, in addition to what the others have said:
For a track-basis (smooth, clean pavement, high grip), the GSXR and it's competitors rule. The weight bias, rake, trail, short wheelbase and low weight all make the bike more nimble and thus inherently more "flickable". The width and stance of the GSXR also means that it has more clearance when leaned over before something touches down.
In the real world, with potholes and bad pavement, expansion joints and loose debris on the road surface, the Kat's sprung-to-unsprung weight ratios have a definitive ride-quality advantage, sucking up such abuse better without upsetting the bike in general.

While Black_Peter is correct that changing the rake angle through physical relocation of the steering stem and fork position is an expensive proposition at best, you can get an alteration by raising the rear some (which effectively rotates the forks closer to straight up-and-down). This will speed handling, but deminish straight-line stability -- always the trade-off in this kind of alteration. A set of shorter rear dog bones (suspension links) will easily raise the rear and speed up the handling. I do carry 98+ Kat dogbones that are 0.41" shorter than stock, in very limited quantities, supplied to me by Suzuki Japan (OEM metals) -- NeOublie has 98+ Kat rear dog bones that he can make on demand to any size spec.

The tire choices are the single biggest change you can make, and are more critical than any other single choice at affecting the handling, turn-in, grip and behavior/feel of the bike. There are varying opinions, but if you can afford it, do what I did and order all the popular contenders, make a deal with a shop to swap tires every week or two at a really-low price and sell the mildly-used ones on eBay to recoup your investments.

The rear shock is a weak point in the set-up. A known-good shock from a slighly heavier bike with all the options on adjustments is a good choice; the problem is that most shocks sold used are already bushed and tired by the time they get listed up (otherwise the owners wouldn't have listed them up in the first place). You might want to see who on KR has a late-model 750 shock they took off when they installed one of my rear Ohlins as a way of finding something cheap that will fit. If you can afford it, I still have a couple rear Ohlins available at $390 + S&H; these are the bomb when it comes to rear shocks.

The fork is also a point of contention, with limited adjustment and rather weak springs IMHO. RaceTech has good upgrades and that's the avenue I'd suggest you pursue (I carry Ohlin front fork springs for the 98+ kats, but nothing for the pre-98's in this area).

The real bomb:
If you could afford it, a set of significantly lighter wheels (used or new), such as magnesium wheels, will make massive differences, because they shed weight from the single biggest rotational mass item in the equation that can be readily parred down. This isn't cheap by any means ($2k isn't uncommon, although sometimes you can luck out and find some for $400 - $700 on eBay used).

And finally, the brake rotors. Again, shedding weight from the rotational & unsprung masses, lightening the rotors by using the petal-shaped rotors from certain companies can slice several pounds off, improve responsiveness and handling. A quick search on KR will net you some hard numbers on that (someone posted the weight differences recently in the mechanics forum).

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[durtyspeed]

Thanks for your post, cyber poet. I will be looking into some new stuff soon. Especially the rear shock. For now, I have to recoup from today. My chain snapped, broke the engine cover, clutch rod, and bent the swingarm. Should be back on the road by the weekend though. Once again, thanks.