Brakes again...I'm ready to throw in the towel..

[ctandc]

See this thread

http://katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=93423

So I install the new master cylinder. I even take out every Speed Bleeder and clean the threads, and add teflon sealant. I then crank the brake line fittings on the caliper down as tight as I can, just this side of round the fitting off. So they are definitely tight.

I fill the system and bleed it. Ran an ENTIRE BIG bottle of fluid through it. Started inboard left, then outboard left, inboard right, outboard right. Used the vacuum pump. Then even did it by pumping a bit on each to "make sure". Same thing.

Yanked the master cylinder off and installed the original, installed the banjo bolt with bleeder and tried it all again.

Same thing.

Good brakes...just too much travel. The lever does NOT get firmer / tighter pumping it up. Just too much travel.

What am I judging travel by? Last night I installed a master cylinder rebuild kit on a friend's OLD cruiser. Added speed bleeders, new pads and used the vacuum pump to flush / bleed the system.

With 15 year old rubber brake lines, he had a ROCK HARD lever with very little travel.

After riding his bike, then riding a newer bike last week, I'm about ready to sell the Katana because of the freaking brakes. It's ridiculous...

And before you ask if I tried this or that, read the thread I listed. If someone has mentioned, I have tried it.

Next step is buying ANOTHER set of brake lines (of course I threw away my old ones) and try that. Then I'll take the calipers off and go through them AGAIN.


NOTE: When pulling the brake lever, I get good brakes. At the end of the lever travel, when I JUST let off the lever there is an audible 'clunk' or 'click' that seems to be coming from the caliper(s).

[GSXfs600]

I just installed these and it took very little effort. I just opened all four bleeders and waited about 20 minutes. The lever now moves about 20% then it's hard as a rock!

http://www.pacific-powersports.com/p...d9f61ab8c8c1fc

[steves]

It could be a bad fitting on the line... what type are you running?

[Black_peter]

I think he has HEL's Steve..

ct, I feel for you. I'm having a lot of trouble with my rears.
But fronts.. Jeez, four bleeders, two lines, two calipers with 8 pistons, 5 crush washers..
Where could things to wrong? basically I'm saying that there are about 25 points where the air is hiding, and I think it is still air, sorry..

[ctandc]

I think he has HEL's Steve..

ct, I feel for you. I'm having a lot of trouble with my rears.
But fronts.. Jeez, four bleeders, two lines, two calipers with 8 pistons, 5 crush washers..
Where could things to wrong? basically I'm saying that there are about 25 points where the air is hiding, and I think it is still air, sorry..

Well I don't think it's air anymore. Something is leaking. Not enough to see, but after a complete flush / fill a couple of months ago, when I opened the master cylinder last night, it was under half full.

At this point the only thing I haven't eliminated is the lines.

And yes I have the HEL 2 line kit, but they are screw in fittings to the front calipers instead of the normal banjo bolt configuration. I'm going to get another pair of lines and see where I'm at then...

[ctandc]

Ended up finding a good deal on a set of Goodridge lines. They should be here Thursday.....we shall see

[jetmerritt]

diagnosing brake mush

I am an auto tech that does not like headaches, especially with brakes. Depending on what lines you have, this may not work, but here goes.

I get a pair of small needlenose vise grips and put pieces of fuel or vacuum hose over the jaws, then start pinching off hoses until I find the problem. Example - on a cage, you have four brakes to one pedal, with a mushy pedal you need to know where to look. I start at the rear and pinch off the hose to the rear brakes, If pedal is then good, then you know where the problem is, next if the pedal still sucks, keep adding vise grips until the pedal gets good. If the pedal still sucks when all the rubber hoses are pinched off, then chances are it's a master cylinder problem.

I hope this helps. I would start by pinching the line right off the master cylinder. If the lever moves and is mushy, you will need one. If the lever is solid and won't move, keep moving outward until you find the culprit.

Note: I have seen pads cause this problem on a pick-up. If you are confident there is no air in the system and the brake lever stays firm with the caliper hoses pinched off right before the caliper, then I would think maybe pads.

I would pinch off the hoses on my own bike, I believe it is a safe practice, of course be gentle, you should only need one hand to close the vise grips. I don't think this method would work on steel braid lines, but on the OEM ones it would work.

Hope that might help diagnosis.

J

[scottynoface]

I vote to take a look at the calipers. They're the only thing that hasn't been checked out/replaced. You said in the referenced thread they were rebuilt, bad seal maybe? I mean I guess you would have seen weeping fluid at some point, but what else is there. Maybe a small poke in the line letting air in?

[HS2020]

CT send me those lines back. I will send them back to HEL and get them replaced for you. They are a warranty item and get replaced. You have tried everything and nothing works.

[Black_peter]

I would never ever pinch off brake lines.. Never..


Ever...
I got mine about 70% better. I had a bad bleeder. Now before you say "I used speed bleeders and the stock bleeders" I think in my case it is the caliper. I think the threads or the sealing face is damaged. I definitely think the system is leaking because you know how short the rear system is.. I'm 99.99% sure I have all the air out I know you are working on the fronts but since they are a shared system; air in the left will make the whole system mushy..

[ctandc]

If the new lines don't fix it, I'll be pulling the calipers and rebuilding them AGAIN. Checking to see if anything is wrong. We shall see..

[jetmerritt]

I would never ever pinch off brake lines.. Never..

Don't ever take your cage to a garage. I went to a brake seminar put on by a major manufacturer and that's what they teach. I questioned it and they actually gave out brake hose pinchers at the seminar and encouraged the techs to do it. There hasn't been a large increase in deaths around our area since the seminar.

Even put old brake hoses on and just do my method to diagnose it?

Just trying to help solve a major headache.

J

[md86]

Yeah , but what about SS lines ?

[H-2 CHARLIE]

maybe just put the one line on off the master and cap it ..that will tell you if its master ... if master is rock tight ... then maybe the line seats dont fit right .check to see if pads pop out easy with the calibar off . dont use syn fluid

[jetmerritt]

Yeah , but what about SS lines ?

NO, just OEM style rubber hoses...