[loudnlow7484]

Seems you just did a good job of contradicting yourself. With Alcohol having less energy per volume than gasoline, yes it will cause a slight loss of power if used in the same A/F ratio as gasoline. The only way to compensate for that decrease in energy is to increase the volume of alcohol by rejetting for it (or by opening the fuel's pathway more by using more throttle) to get the same results, which is why you lose mileage when running E10 or E15 even when riding the same as you did with non-alcohol gas. Granted the loss of power with 10-15% alcohol may be small enough to not be very noticable most of the time (seat of the pants), but it's still a loss.

With the correct a/f ratio, alcohol gets less mpg and makes the same or greater power..... there is no contradiction about it. If you run a significant mix of ethanol without fattening up the fuel to compensate, then you have the situation you just described.... running hotter, less mpg, and potentially less power.

Not true. Alcohol is an "oxygenate", it has more more oxygen than gasoline.A bike running E10 will run leaner than if it were running on pure gas. Adjust the mixture all you want (fuel injected cars care better able to do this) but you will not get the power you had with pure gas.The only way you can would be if you raised the compression ratio of the motor or were to jack up the timing of the motor. Moving on to E85, and doing this these things, along with major changes in the fueling, will produce more power. I know of people who have done this with their cars, specifically, GTO's like mine with LS2 motors, they get larger injectors, remap their pcm's, some run blowers and all is done with e85 in mind.
Getting back to to e10, properly tuned, running it will give you about 3-5% less mpg. I don't know how much power you'd lose. When my bike was bone stock, it got around 42mpg. Now that it is jetted and piped, driven real gently, I can get 39mpg. And, you can't really blame the jetting as it is now pretty spot on and if I still had the stock jetting (which was super lean to begin with), the bike would be excessively lean, bordering on bad for the motor type of lean.

I agree with everything you said, except the loss of power. With proper a/f ratio, alcohol will make the same or even slightly more power (as it runs cooler). This isn't just my opinion here...... suzukiray (when he used to hang around here) said exactly the same thing, and there are multiple studies that prove it.

And yeah, guys running a lot of boost LOVE E85. 100+ octane fuel at the pump, without the race-fuel price.... what's not to love? The biggest problem back in Ohio is that E85 stations are around, but not everywhere, so it could be a convenience issue (not as inconvenient as finding race gas though).

[Psycho1]

Yes with the right ratios you can make a lot of power with E-85 alcohol, the problem is the proper ratio usually ends up requiring nearly twice as much fuel. As far as I know, the original discussion wasn't about problems with engines tuned specifically to benefit from running alohol, but more about problems with alcohol blends in our older engines tuned for straight gas, which is where you will notice a drop in power, along with the problems caused by deteriorating rubber pieces in the fuel systems.

[scottynoface]

Yes with the right ratios you can make a lot of power with E-85 alcohol, the problem is the proper ratio usually ends up requiring nearly twice as much fuel. As far as I know, the original discussion wasn't about problems with engines tuned specifically to benefit from running alohol, but more about problems with alcohol blends in our older engines tuned for straight gas, which is where you will notice a drop in power, along with the problems caused by deteriorating rubber pieces in the fuel systems.

[Blackdog]

So can I expect my new truck 2011 GMC 4.8 V8 to make more then the stock 305 hp on E85? (it's flex-fuel)

[Psycho1]

Probably not, I imagine they consentrated more on economy when they designed it than maximizing performance with the E85. lol

[outlaw]

Seems to be exactly wuts happening to me eveyday this week I've come home from work and tore into my bike deep cleaning the carbs it idle really good for a bit then doesn't want to idle at all unless I give it some gas. Runs fine as I'm riding but as soon as I go to stop she wants to stall. I've also noticed a white powdery residue while tearin them apart.

[DClark]

I agree with everything you said, except the loss of power. With proper a/f ratio, alcohol will make the same or even slightly more power (as it runs cooler).

I don't see how a motor can run cooler with alcohol. All the articles I have read about alcohol say that it burns hotter than gasoline.

[loudnlow7484]

I don't see how a motor can run cooler with alcohol. All the articles I have read about alcohol say that it burns hotter than gasoline.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if you write your own information and then reference to it. I've never heard anybody claim that alcohol runs hotter before. Ask a drag racer that has run both, or just pay a visit to a local strip and check it out for yourself. Engines running on alcohol absolutely run much cooler than gasoline. I've heard people say their intakes have been ice cold after a run on alcohol, but I've never seen that for myself.

Yes with the right ratios you can make a lot of power with E-85 alcohol, the problem is the proper ratio usually ends up requiring nearly twice as much fuel. As far as I know, the original discussion wasn't about problems with engines tuned specifically to benefit from running alohol, but more about problems with alcohol blends in our older engines tuned for straight gas, which is where you will notice a drop in power, along with the problems caused by deteriorating rubber pieces in the fuel systems.

For pure ethanol (E100), the correct a/f ratio is ~9:1, and for gasoline it's about 14.7:1..... That's not twice as much, it's about 30% more or so.

And like I said before, only people that have problems and blame them on the alcohol blend pizz and moan about it.... everybody that runs it with no issues says nothing.

[DClark]

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if you write your own information and then reference to it. I've never heard anybody claim that alcohol runs hotter before.

Sorry, but I am not creative enough to make this stuff.

"
"Half of the engines tested so far have had some problems, said C. Coleman Jones, the biofuel implementation manager at General Motors, who spoke on behalf of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers.
More ethanol will confuse exhaust control systems and make engines run too hot, destroying catalytic converters, automakers say. It can also damage engine cylinders, they say"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/business/energy-environment/05ethanol.html

"Ethanol burns hotter and faster than regular gasoline, so vehicles that burn it must have more heat-resistant engines; metals in fuel lines, fuel injectors, fuel tanks, piston rings, fuel pumps and other components must be made of ethanol-compatible materials. Fueling and spark advance calibrations must be adjusted.

Read more: How E85 Ethanol Flex Fuel Works | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5382110...#ixzz1BoiTLd2Z

[car0linab0y]

Here's a test... pour alcohol on one hand and gasoline on the other. See which one gets hotter

So back to the issue... because my Kat doesn't move very often, or for very long. What's the best option as far as gas that'll be sitting in the tank for more than a few days?

[kevin2502000]

Here's a test... pour alcohol on one hand and gasoline on the other. See which one gets hotter

So back to the issue... because my Kat doesn't move very often, or for very long. What's the best option as far as gas that'll be sitting in the tank for more than a few days?

Non ethanol blended fuel mixed with some seafoam or marine stabil.

[loudnlow7484]

Sorry, but I am not creative enough to make this stuff.

"
"Half of the engines tested so far have had some problems, said C. Coleman Jones, the biofuel implementation manager at General Motors, who spoke on behalf of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers.
More ethanol will confuse exhaust control systems and make engines run too hot, destroying catalytic converters, automakers say. It can also damage engine cylinders, they say"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/business/energy-environment/05ethanol.html

"Ethanol burns hotter and faster than regular gasoline, so vehicles that burn it must have more heat-resistant engines; metals in fuel lines, fuel injectors, fuel tanks, piston rings, fuel pumps and other components must be made of ethanol-compatible materials. Fueling and spark advance calibrations must be adjusted.

Read more: How E85 Ethanol Flex Fuel Works | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5382110...#ixzz1BoiTLd2Z

IF it "confuses" the emissions control, and it continues to be run at 14.7:1 (way lean for alcohol), then it will run hot, because it is lean, not because alcohol runs hotter. Alcohol running hotter than gasoline is absolute, 100% BS. This whole conversation is bordering on BS. It's like saying that high compression is bad because when you dropped 14:1 compression pistons in your bike and continued to run it on 87 octane pump gas, it made no power and grenaded itself quickly.... it's a consequence of doing it wrong, not of the compression itself.

If you need google to tell you that you're wrong, just search for "alcohol runs cooler" and you'll get pages and pages of results saying just that (in everything from quads to karts to blown big-blocks). It would be wiser, though, to just ask somebody who has actually run both.

[6Kat]

You know Krey, I am going to bet this is the same issue that i am having with my Bike which would explain why it is an intermittent thing with it running like poo. And i do use Cheveron fuel so i don't think that the Techron helps with that. I am going to try some of that CRC Phase 4 Guard and see if that helps with my problem as i know Utah dumps an Azz ton of ethanol in our winter fuel.

[mammut89]

I have no problems with this issue. over here most 95octane is 5 % or 10% ethanol. no clogging here and no reference to the issue at the Norwegian forums. I havent read the whole thread but my guess is that the problem is not the ethanol itself its something in your gas station tanks that are being partially disolved by introducing the ethanol.

[flash007]

I have been having issues with my 06'600 Kat. speratic idle no power on take of and bad hesitation up to 3.5k rpm. tried different fuels from different stores and additives. As a last resort i bought the startron enzyme fuel treatment in the boating section of wal-mart yesterday morning. added 1oz. and filled up super for sh!tz and giggles.i rode the dog sh!t out of it for 20 or so miles on my way home. later that afternoon i hopped on the Kat to head to work, it idled super smooth and the trottle was night and day with no more hesitation. I know everyone is partial to one thing or another but I will be using the enzyme treatment from now on.

Ethanol 101: 4 main problems with Ethonal fuel http://mystarbrite.com/public/pdf/LIT010V2.1-101.pdf
Startron Enzyme Fuel Treatmenthttp://mystarbrite.com/startron//con...14/37/lang,en/

http://mystarbrite.com/startron//con...35/47/lang,en/