[Newbie2it]

PM Cyberpoet, He sells temp guages that use a extremely compact design oil temp sending unit that can go up to 400 degrees. the unit is small enough that you can easily fit it to your oil pan. In fact, the directions he has are for Post kats on exactly where to drill and tap them into the oil pan for a proper fit.

[baddkat]

Standard NPT tap sizes are .250 NPT and .190 (or #10) NPT.

You could also drill and tap the ID out to whatever size is next up on the chart, like a 3/8 or 5/16 NPT. Maybe something to do in the down time. I'm just a little leary of heater hose as an HP fuel line, for safety sake.

you have every right to be concerned, gasoline WILL break down the heater hose with time. How long, I don't remember, but I found out the hard way on a '67 Chevelle. I was too cheap to buy the 5/8 "fuel" hose and ended up with a fuel fed underhood fire that cost me $$$$$$$$$ to recover from. FIND A BETTER WAY!!

[TheSteve]

you have every right to be concerned, gasoline WILL break down the heater hose with time. How long, I don't remember, but I found out the hard way on a '67 Chevelle. I was too cheap to buy the 5/8 "fuel" hose and ended up with a fuel fed underhood fire that cost me $$$$$$$$$ to recover from. FIND A BETTER WAY!!

Oh ****, thats no good. I'll see if I can find a fuel rated hose.

I thought he stopped selling those because of leaks or something? Or was that just the adapter for the drain plug?

[ATOMonkey]

I vote for getting the sensor wet. No sense in half assing it at this point.

You could also put the sensor in the oil cooler line. All that takes is some plumbing.

[ThAzKat]

I am following this close, once everything is worked out this could be a great mod on any katana!!

[jwilliams]

Hello,

I have been trying to determine a solution for engine temp as well. I found several of the 'Squirted motorcycles use fin temp sensors. I found only one who described why. He tried an oil sensor but the delay between when your oil reaches a temp and when your bike was actually warm was different. He found that he had to estimate a oil increase of only 30 degrees was when his engine nolonger needed enrichment and therefore was warm. On the other hand he found the engine itself (the fin) heated up faster than the oil and at a better 'ration' and gave him a much better reading for enrichment. (can't find link right now) This goes along with what it said in the MS manual as well.

Like you said, I never found the Kat to be a problem starting even in late season riding so enrichment might not be an issue. I'm thinking of using a drilled and tapped fin with some sort of CHT sensor. Just not sure which one will work the best with MS. I think it will be the easiest to implement and suit our needs.

Newbie2it: I think the CyberPoet temp sensor would need some work to use with MS as I believe it's a single line sensor with ground through the bike which from the manual is not the best solution for the MS


TTYL, Jeff

[Contrldkaos]

ok man. im sold. im actually really excited about doing this. can you give me a no **** list of what you suggest for components? ive got a 2004 kat 600.

[TheSteve]

I vote for getting the sensor wet. No sense in half assing it at this point.

You could also put the sensor in the oil cooler line. All that takes is some plumbing.

Agreed on getting it wet. I talked to CP about getting his sensor, and that very well could be the way to go. I'd have to measure resistance at a few different temp points and adjust the MS to make it work with the new resistance curve, but it would work. I did a little "test" of sorts last night. I rode the Kat home then let it sit for about 5 hours. I then went outside and just poked around all over the engine to see where its still warm. This would hint at where a suitable location for a sensor would be. The cooling fins were very warm, the oil cooler and all lines were room temp, the head was fairly warm, the head oil lines were somewhat warm, and the clutch cover was quite hot as was the oil pan. Id be weary of using the oil lines because they seem to cool very quickly, though that is the way it was done on the turbo project. I think it might take a crank or two for the hot oil to bring the sensor up to temp.

Hello,

I have been trying to determine a solution for engine temp as well. I found several of the 'Squirted motorcycles use fin temp sensors. I found only one who described why. He tried an oil sensor but the delay between when your oil reaches a temp and when your bike was actually warm was different. He found that he had to estimate a oil increase of only 30 degrees was when his engine nolonger needed enrichment and therefore was warm. On the other hand he found the engine itself (the fin) heated up faster than the oil and at a better 'ration' and gave him a much better reading for enrichment. (can't find link right now) This goes along with what it said in the MS manual as well.

Like you said, I never found the Kat to be a problem starting even in late season riding so enrichment might not be an issue. I'm thinking of using a drilled and tapped fin with some sort of CHT sensor. Just not sure which one will work the best with MS. I think it will be the easiest to implement and suit our needs.

Newbie2it: I think the CyberPoet temp sensor would need some work to use with MS as I believe it's a single line sensor with ground through the bike which from the manual is not the best solution for the MS


TTYL, Jeff

Now this is interesting, and I cant say I thought of it until now. But it makes sense. Oil always takes a long time to come to operating temperature but I never thought it would actually affect anything. I'm torn now, do I want to use the oil temp, or the cylinder temp? The oil temp is a general temperature of the motor, but the cyl temp is really what would dictate fueling requirements. It is nice to see that others had the same idea about the cooling fin mounting spot, though.

As for a sensor to do the fin probe, the same GM temp sensor should be alright. The probe length is the perfect size to be completely surrounded by fin while pressing up against the block. And, its the sensor the MS is expecting so theres no need to recalibrate. The one wire sensor would work alright (though not ideal) except when under heavy electrical load...like cranking. So I'm not sure on that one. Maybe if I can find another low profile temp sensor but in a two wire variant.

So pick your poison: one wire sensor that may give false values when needed most (cranking) but provides a more accurate temperature, or the two wire sensor thats mounted in a less accurate location. I'm going to a junkyard for mostly unrelated reasons today, but maybe I'll pick up another of these temp sensors just for fun.

As was said, I'm close so theres no sense in halfassing things now. Maybe I'll try the GM sensor first, and if it doesnt work perfectly I'm out a whole $8 (if the sensor doesnt find itself in my pocket on the way out of the junkyard) and I can buy the oil pan mounted sensor. I just worry about it being one wire, going off what the TPS did while chassis grounded (no longer the case) I dont see the sensor doing much good. The TPS shot up about 20% while cranking and I think this would do the same, possibly negating its purpose.

ok man. im sold. im actually really excited about doing this. can you give me a no **** list of what you suggest for components? ive got a 2004 kat 600.

It should be about the same as the first post, but with none of the HEI stuff:

MS1 2.2 (my choice, all of them work)
Inline fuel pump (45psi minimum)
EFI fuel pressure regulator (44psi vac line not attached)
Fuel filter
01-03 GSXR 600 throttle bodies (750/1000 may work, fitment not guaranteed. Not recommended unless you want to be the guniea pig)
GM coolant temp sensor (possibly 2 now) At the parts desk say its for a 91 Chevy Camaro RS, V8 Fuel injected
Wideband O2
Either new petcock or preferably a second hole in the tank for a return
16-18 gauge wire. 16 for high load stuff and the wideband, 18 for temp sensors, TPS, etc.

That should be it, I think. I mentioned diodes and a few resistors. Before buying them, make sure you dont have extras with your MS. Theres several "obsolete" circuits on the 2.2 board that the instructions tell you not to build, so you have prefectly usable diodes and resistors.

EDIT: Its going to be asked if the GM temp sensor will read to 400F like the CP sensor. No, its not likely, but between 180 and 300 degrees the cranking pulsewidths should be the same. Its more important to have when the engine is cold. I've found that the bike with NO temp sensor will do hot starts fine, start alright after a 6 hour shift at work, sometimes start after a 9 hour shift, and is bitchy on a cold start. I dont think the high temp is really needed here. In fact, the MS code only allows crank pulses to be defined up to 160F. Other codes may have a user set field, though.

[Contrldkaos]

just an out of bounds thought but not possible to wire directly to the factory installed temp sensor?

thanks alot man. im looking for all the parts now so that i know where to go when i get the TB's at a resonable price. thanks for putting all the effort into this for people like me that dont have the time to. i hope to have this going so i can ride it before i go to the sandbox next summer.

[TheSteve]

Factory temp sensor? I think the only sensor the Kat has on it from the factory is the oil pressure sensor, to trigger the red light on the dash. If I find a sensor with the matching thread pitch I could pull that out and replace it with a temp sensor but I'd lose the oil warning light. I found my TBs on ebay for less than 50 bucks shipped

[TheSteve]

Well, I've got the sensor mounted, the JB weld is drying right now. CP tells me that the sensor he sells also comes in a variety of different temperature ranges as well as different pin configurations. That's probably what I'm going to do. No worries of cutting corners with the sensor mounted to the motor and no worries of ground biasing due to the one wire sensor. This may actually end up working great!

Also, I edited the first several posts to reflect the new HEI info in case someone starts buying stuff before reading the entire thread. Old info is still there for reference.

[ATOMonkey]

Way to go Steve! Can't wait to hear about the results! I think this thread need a vid of her starting up and running too.

[TheSteve]

Alright, so the sensor is installed and this morning I started tuning the cold start stuff. This can be tricky because the engine only reaches a true cold start state after sitting for about 7 hours. So you only get maybe 2 shots at getting it right in a normal day, unless you never sleep and you might get 3 tries. I've got it to kick over pretty easily but I'm not 100% certain yet. I'll have to try again tomorrow. Hot starts seem to be going pretty well now. I also filled up the tank again, looks like I'm getting 32.3 MPG, which isnt too bad all things considered. I had a nice fuel spill while adding a hose clamp on and probably lost a decent bit. I'm heavy on the throttle too. Lastly I'm sure I waste a TON of gas every time I sit there trying and failing to get it to start. Once the tune is further improved mileage should go up. Which brings me to another point:

I've read numerous times here that Kats come from the factory very lean. Which is why theyre so intolerant of K&N filters, etc without rejetting. How lean are these things running stock? I want to lean my mixture out quite a bit but I really dont want to trash pistons. I dont have an EGT (exhaust gas temp) gauge so I dont really have any warning either. So right now its tuned as a car would be: stoich idle, lean cruising (15.0:1 or slightly higher AFR target), and rich up top (between 13.5 and 12.8). I think I can go much leaner, but I'd like some input from people with Kat/GSXR/Bandit engine experience specifically (though any sportbike engine tuning experience if ok). I'd like to keep the idle around 14.7 for now to curb the occasional stallout issue though it hasn't happened in some time. WOT can probably be leaned out some, though probably not much. I'd imagine it gets pretty hot in there at 11,000 RPM. Cruising is where I want to lean it way out. You can do this out to over 17:1 in a car because the temps are pretty low, but with cruise here being the redline of most cars I feel I need to keep it rich. For reference on cruise RPMs, in AZ on surface streets you can go around 50-55 and on the freeway its between 70 and 85. I can definitely lean it out for street riding, but its the freeway I worry about. Is that considered "high load" or is it still cruising?

[ThAzKat]

I would think high load would be taking off from a stop and running up the gears. 11,000 rpm would be high load. I would suggest some dyno/EGA run or 10
on the car to katana example, katana is oil/air cooled compared to liquid cooled cars that can run alot leaner because they run low temps.

[TheSteve]

So do you think I could lean it out a bit at cruise or keep it where it is? Theres also the possibility that the tune needs to be touched up a little bit since it was originally scaled to 8 cyl mode. Though the way it works it should be mostly independent