ethanol

[aheadinabox]

Greetings, I have a 1990 Katana 750 . Fairly new rider, only engine mod I am aware of is a D & D exhaust. My question is about ethanol, and the feasibility of running anything other than the standard 10 percent blend normally available at US pumps. Anyone doing this, or have any input?

[burningmetalmaniac]

I remember a while ago all the hot rodders were talking about running e-85 and there are kits available to retrofit an old school chevy small block to run e-85, and I do remember one of the guys I got into a discussion with about it said that it's something like 100 octane, but burns at effectively 110 because it burns cooler, which woulldn't be a bad idea on an oil cooled bike. the only downside I remember was the alcohol dries out rubber seals and is more prone to moisture. You'd probably have to replace the seals in the carbs with nitrile ones, jet it higher and advance the timing a bit, but it's possible. Now we just gotta find someone with an extra bike they're willing to make a guinea pig out of. lol

[Sturg]

I'm definitely not speaking from experience. But with a little bit of research into some of the materials used for various hoses, boots and the such, to make sure ethanol won't damage/dissolve it, I think it seems completely feasible. It would almost definitely require some carb tinkering, but who doesn't love to do that anyway?

[aheadinabox]

phenomenal

wow...I couldn't have expected such a quick response !! Thanks for the replies, I have worked at several ethanol plants, and have access to a quantity, but really wasn't sure whether it would immediately cause harm by running a tank or two. I have 1/2 tank of reg gas I will run out today, and try putting a gallon or so of e85 in..any comments? I will post my results.

and thanks peoples !!

[Jimmie]

I don't have any experience with a GSXF and ethanol, but from cars, both n/a and turbocharged. When running the cars on ethanol it always required extra fuel to be added, as in changes to the ECU and in some cases swapping injectors for bigger ones (especially with higher boost).
I guess that would mean bigger jets for a carb'ed engine. Don't wanna run it lean.

[Sturg]

wow...I couldn't have expected such a quick response !! Thanks for the replies, I have worked at several ethanol plants, and have access to a quantity, but really wasn't sure whether it would immediately cause harm by running a tank or two. I have 1/2 tank of reg gas I will run out today, and try putting a gallon or so of e85 in..any comments? I will post my results.

and thanks peoples !!

Not sure how well it's gonna burn without those carb adjustments. The comment above about needing to push more fuel is very significant. Compare gasoline molecules to ethanol, gas molecules have more on the order of 10 carbons while ethanol has 2. This means the air fuel mixture is significantly different for the combustion reaction.

[kevin2502000]

I am not sure going higher than 10% would be that good. I'm not exactly sure what qualifies a vehicle as "flex fuel" but I do know the people who use it in their cars that it doesn't perform any better. It does drop the mpg and evened out with the cost savings vs. regular unleaded mpg. Ethanol breaks down alot faster when sitting around in a tank also.

[Sturg]

Eh cost/performance arguments don't go far, I think it's more of the oil dependence argument and carbon neutral arguments. Corn subsidies are the only reason ethanol is even comparable.

What exactly is the ethanol breakdown process? Without doing any research I can't think of any breakdown reactions of ethanol or ethanol and metals, etc.

[Jax]

From previous, many previous posts on ethanol (Cyberpoet spent a lot of time on this, god rest his soul), the problem is not so much running it as keeping water out of it...see Ethanol has hygroscopic properties that attracts water from the air...this poses a problem in motorcycles because our tanks are not pressurized enough to keep the long term elements out of the tank..this means over time it will attract water in the tank that will rust your tank and accumulate water in your fuel...

[Kreylyn]

From previous, many previous posts on ethanol (Cyberpoet spent a lot of time on this, god rest his soul), the problem is not so much running it as keeping water out of it...see Ethanol has hygroscopic properties that attracts water from the air...this poses a problem in motorcycles because our tanks are not pressurized enough to keep the long term elements out of the tank..this means over time it will attract water in the tank that will rust your tank and accumulate water in your fuel...

A tank sealant ( I recomend Por-15) helps with preventing rust in the tank, and a regular use of a water removing additive would be suggested.

But then this part is partially a problem now for Kats with normal Fuel... so I recomend everyone do it.

Krey

[Staerke]

I hate running 10% in my Kat and only do if I have no other choice.
I find it breaks down very quickly and makes my Kat run like ****. I switched to unblended and saw a marked improvement.

[loudnlow7484]

You could theoretically run alcohol if.....

You replace the fuel line and any o-rings/gaskets with material that is suitable for it
You jet at least 30% richer (but you'll have to experiment to find the perfect jetting)
You burn fuel fast enough to go through a tank before it accumulates too much water

That said, it won't help you much. If you really want to take advantage of E85 or pure ethanol, you'd want to build the motor with much higher compression (otherwise, why run 100 octane?). It's a great fuel for making power. Maybe not so much for the weekend rider, though.

[kevin2502000]

i hate running 10% in my kat and only do if i have no other choice.
I find it breaks down very quickly and makes my kat run like ****. I switched to unblended and saw a marked improvement.

Really? My seems to run actually better on it but like I said it doesn't store well. I do know it is known to knock rust or debris loose when you first start using it. This caused people to think it was clogging fuel lines when really it was cleaning out deposits. It DEFINITELY accumulates water, I drained my tank that sat for 4-5 months and when I siphoned it, it had no bite to it when I tasted it. My lawn mower wouldn't even run on it.

eh cost/performance arguments don't go far, i think it's more of the oil dependence argument and carbon neutral arguments. Corn subsidies are the only reason ethanol is even comparable.

You should watch Jessie Venturas' Conspiracy Theory on Global Warming.....................

[aheadinabox]

etOH update

From my experience as a millwright and pipefitter at an ethanol plant, I can attest to the corrosive value of etOH. The ph is usually higher than the denaturant and anti corrosives added to it. It is hydroscopic(attracts water) .
All this being said, I am really not prepared to rejet nor attempt to retune for ethanol. All fuel around here, unless bought from a race supplier has 10 percent ethanol in it, but I haven't had any water related problems yet. I run at least 1 tank a week.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies, what a wonderful resource this site is !!

[Astro4x4]

From previous, many previous posts on ethanol (Cyberpoet spent a lot of time on this, god rest his soul), the problem is not so much running it as keeping water out of it...see Ethanol has hygroscopic properties that attracts water from the air...this poses a problem in motorcycles because our tanks are not pressurized enough to keep the long term elements out of the tank..this means over time it will attract water in the tank that will rust your tank and accumulate water in your fuel...

Sta-Bil Marine, http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/default.aspx