Petcock help ('89 600)

[Skier]

My Kat has fuel starvation issues on the ON setting, so I tore into the petcock to rebuild it with K&L rebuilt kit 18-2767. I take everything apart:





I clean it all up, reassemble it with new parts and find on PRIME I don't get any flow out of the fuel outlet. I find the problem: old plunger on the left, new plunger on the right:



It didn't bloody fit. Naturally, the old plunger and diaphragm are totalled so I couldn't use them. I jury-rigged something I'm not proud of and my bike runs, but doesn't pass enough fuel so she gets fuel starved doing anything but around town riding.

Now, from all the searching I've done, this kit should have been the right one. Did my package get the wrong parts in it, or is my petcock from a different bike or year (ronayers.com parts fische says I have the correct petcock for my model year, a single-fuel-outlet model). Ah yes, there was also a different gasket included with the kit that didn't match anything I took out of mine. It's the round, big o-ring under the paper gasket at the top of this picture:



I'm confused and have a five day motorcycling trip planned starting in 6 days, so I'm anxious to get this fixed!

[The CyberPoet]

You got caught out by the fact that your bike still has the original fuel cock assembly (44300-19C00), which was unique to '88 and '89 model years. The 90 - 97 model years get a different petcock (44300-20C00). It looks like you'll probably need to source an entire petcock to get your bike ready by trip time.

Sorry...

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Skier]

Thanks CyberPoet. Sinfulkat was extremely helpful in pointing out I'm missing a space which would make that new plunger setup work. I'm going to order the 19C00 petcock from RonAyers tomorrow and hope they can get it over here second day air, to be sure.

[The CyberPoet]

Thanks CyberPoet. Sinfulkat was extremely helpful in pointing out I'm missing a space which would make that new plunger setup work. I'm going to order the 19C00 petcock from RonAyers tomorrow and hope they can get it over here second day air, to be sure.

DON'T!

Go down to your local Suzuki dealership and order it.

Why?
Because RonAyers normally orders from Suzuki's warehouses to their own location, then turns around and ships it to you, meaning unless they already have it in stock, it'll be about 10 days before you see it (4 days to them, 4 days to you, plus overhead time at both the Suzuki warehouse and the RonAyers warehouse).
By ordering it at the local dealer, it goes straight from the Suzuki warehouse to your local dealer, and should arrive within 4 days or less (2-day air upgrade might make sense through the local dealer just to CYA).

You may also want to send a PM to BraadaJim and see if he has a pre-98 petcock in stock -- you can always use the later (90-97) petcock and simply cap off the other fuel line (or run them both into a splitter and have twice the fuel on demand flowing to the carbs).

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Skier]

Thanks CyberPoet. Sinfulkat was extremely helpful in pointing out I'm missing a space which would make that new plunger setup work. I'm going to order the 19C00 petcock from RonAyers tomorrow and hope they can get it over here second day air, to be sure.

DON'T!

Go down to your local Suzuki dealership and order it.

Why?
Because RonAyers normally orders from Suzuki's warehouses to their own location, then turns around and ships it to you, meaning unless they already have it in stock, it'll be about 10 days before you see it (4 days to them, 4 days to you, plus overhead time at both the Suzuki warehouse and the RonAyers warehouse).
By ordering it at the local dealer, it goes straight from the Suzuki warehouse to your local dealer, and should arrive within 4 days or less (2-day air upgrade might make sense through the local dealer just to CYA).

You may also want to send a PM to BraadaJim and see if he has a pre-98 petcock in stock -- you can always use the later (90-97) petcock and simply cap off the other fuel line (or run them both into a splitter and have twice the fuel on demand flowing to the carbs).

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

Umm, alright. So if I have the dealer order it first thing when they open on Tuesday, I should have it in my hands by Friday? Nearest dealer is about 45 minutes away, one-way. :/

[dumboguy03]

don't drive man. get a phone. everyone has one these days. but yea, thats about right. they always say 5 bus days, and its there in 4. good luck!

[The CyberPoet]

Umm, alright. So if I have the dealer order it first thing when they open on Tuesday, I should have it in my hands by Friday? Nearest dealer is about 45 minutes away, one-way. :/

Get on the phone to RonAyers and verify they already have it in stock for you put in any orders... if they don't, call the local dealer or start farming other sources if you don't want to drive the 45 minutes. Other places to check with are:
BikeBandit.com
BrocktonCycles.com
DennisKirk.com

My inside contact at RonAyers (answers emails very quickly normally) is Vicki Jenkins, who normally responds to emails at [email protected]
You should also be able reach Belinda Gurganus over there at [email protected] who sometimes handles inventory level issues.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Skier]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I'll get started on tracking this stuff down.

dumboguy03: I am kind of short on time with midterms and homework this week, finding about two hours to pick up my part is going to be kind of tough. I wasn't going to drive down to see if they had the part.

[BraadaJim]

You got caught out by the fact that your bike still has the original fuel cock assembly (44300-19C00), which was unique to '88 and '89 model years. The 90 - 97 model years get a different petcock (44300-20C00). It looks like you'll probably need to source an entire petcock to get your bike ready by trip time.

Sorry...

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

Aiight Marc now you've confused me. With all the parts I've done over the years it seems to have held true to this moment that part numbers work as the first set being the actual part number, the second set being the model number and the third set (if any) being the color code. 19C00 always comes back to 600 parts and the 20C00 always comes back to 750's.....unless the part has been discontinued and then they roll the second set of numbers to reflect the replacement (example would read something like (44300-20C04 if it was on it's 4th discontinue replacement) By that logic (experience) and the numbers you gave above would tell me that he needs a 750 kit and got a 600.
Where did I fall of the trail here?

[Skier]

Ron Ayers don't have either the '88-'89 or the '90-'97 petcock in stock, said it would take 7-10 business days to get it to my door. Bikebandit.com said they don't know the status of OEM parts until you order them.

Looks like dealerships are gonna be my next best bet. Assuming this falls through, is there some kind of universal petcock I can use? Perhaps a Pingel with ON/OFF/PRIME positions (not vacuum operated)?

[The CyberPoet]

Aiight Marc now you've confused me. With all the parts I've done over the years it seems to have held true to this moment that part numbers work as the first set being the actual part number, the second set being the model number and the third set (if any) being the color code. 19C00 always comes back to 600 parts and the 20C00 always comes back to 750's.....unless the part has been discontinued and then they roll the second set of numbers to reflect the replacement (example would read something like (44300-20C04 if it was on it's 4th discontinue replacement) By that logic (experience) and the numbers you gave above would tell me that he needs a 750 kit and got a 600.
Where did I fall of the trail here?

I just pulled the numbers directly off the RonAyers Fiche files. It would appear they decided to float the petcock from the 89 750 into the 90-97 Kat 600 models for cost-effectiveness reasons.

I started looking at the diagrams closely, as well as at the pictures he posted.
RonAyers shows different petcock sku's & diagrams for 88-89 (compared to 90-97), and as you know they switched from a single-fuel feed line to the carbs (88&89) to a dual-fuel feed for the '90-97 model year (substituting in the same petcock as on the 89 750's for cost effective reasons -- just go back to the parts shelf instead of spec'ing a whole new part), which tells me that Suzuki was getting reports of fueling issues in the field (or that the BST31SS carbs weren't up to the job). Since in '90 they swapped to a BST33SS carb, It makes sense to me that as a result, they needed enlarged the passage (which I had no clue about until he mentioned the difference in plunger sizes).

Start here: 88-97 Kat 600 fiche page list and pull the pages for fuel cock models J&K, and Fuel Cock L thru T fiche page for each. You'll spot the sku differences. The 750 petcock matches the Fuel Cock L-T models.

On the other hand, there's no reason that I can tell that he shouldn't be able to take a whole petcock from a 90-97 and use it if you can get one to him in a rush, provided he either merges both output lines (T-fitting) or blocks one of them off.

Ron Ayers don't have either the '88-'89 or the '90-'97 petcock in stock, said it would take 7-10 business days to get it to my door. Bikebandit.com said they don't know the status of OEM parts until you order them.

Looks like dealerships are gonna be my next best bet. Assuming this falls through, is there some kind of universal petcock I can use? Perhaps a Pingel with ON/OFF/PRIME positions (not vacuum operated)?

Only if you can get it to seal the feed hole, which may be problematic (no clue here). I would be willing to bet the dealer can get it... There might be a field expedient method available to just use a piece of generic rubber gasket sheet that's fuel-contact compatible and install it sans plunger and spring all-together (I'm not sure on that, just guessing now), as long as you know none of your fuel bowl floats are sticking.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Skier]

I've been mulling over the fuel supply problem in my head for a while. My old petcock wasn't torn up (before I disassembled it), so the piston/plunger could move back all the way. So a it was working Good Enough, or the best I can figure. The pickups also were clean and free of debris.

No, assuming the petcock isn't the fuel supply issue, it means the carb bowls are draining faster than they are being filled. Now, how to solve that problem? Browing the 1990 Kat 600 parts fische ( http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_00...20&parent=4850 ), it looks like I might be able to get the t-hose, P/N 13684-20C10, and place that between a couple of carbs for my bike. That way I can augment the usual fuel supply into the one carb (which feeds a common fuel rail for all four) with another line. The additional flow should prevent any fuel starvation, right? Assuming I use the dual-outlet petcock I have on the way.

[The CyberPoet]

I would think so....

Usually fuel supply problems in my experience are down to just a handful of things, the most common of which is bad fuel line routing or an inline fuel-filter that isn't downhill all the way, or a blocked gas tank vent (or tank vent hose).

Fuel lines on this and other non-fuel-pump bikes need to run downhill the whole way. If they run uphill at any point, it can result in fuel starvation. If they get pinned or folded, same can happen. Ditto trying to run a fuel filter on it's side, where the entry hole is lower than the exit (big air bubble results, interfering with the flow at high flow rates).
The other end of the equation is the tank venting, which lets air into the tank to replace the fuel that's been sucked down into the carbs. If you coat your tank and don't poke those holes well, or if the vent hose is blocked, you can end up with a vapor-lock situation, where basically vacuum pressure in the tank is keeping fuel from flowing freely.

Good Luck!
=-= The CyberPoet

[Skier]

Can you elaborate on the vent hose locateion for me? Cheap and easy stuff first!

[The CyberPoet]

Can you elaborate on the vent hose locateion for me? Cheap and easy stuff first!

Fuel tank fiche, 88 - 90

Item 18 and what it connects to on the tank.
Inside the tank there should be a passage routed to the neck of the filler cap, so that when rain water spills into the gas cap area, it drains out that hose (as does an over-full tank if the fuel expands with heat, such as if the day gets hot and the bike is parked in the sun).
In the filler neck at the cap there is also a rubber seal that the gas cap seals down onto on some bikes (no clue if yours has one; never looked at those years closely enough) -- it also works in conjunction with this hose passage to let air into the tank as the fuel draws out. If the hose, the nipple for the hose or the hole at the top that routes to the hose is blocked, it can cause air not to go into the tank as necessary, or permit rain water to go into the tank (instead of draining). Both are evil situations.
The hoses usually get blocked up by debris, while the passage more often accidentally get sealed over during tank sealing processes and people forget to shove a coat hanger or other object in there before the sealant dries.

Good Luck!
=-= The CyberPoet