WIERD ENGINE SWAP QUESTION...

[tdrcomm]

I've got an engine swap question. I warn you, I'm no Crazymofo, Waltari, or Mojoe, so if this sounds off the wall remember, I did offer this disclaimer:

Is it possible to drop a Kat 600 engine INTO a GSXR 600 (or R6, ZX6 or CBR 600) frame? Is it too heavy for the newer frame? Would it throw the bike's balance off?

Just a thought (I think you guys know where I'm going with this)

[Anonymous]

I gotta ask....WHY?
Not an expert either (but you knew that), I don't think it's a weight issue...

[Anonymous]

anything is possible with enough money

[tdrcomm]

I gotta ask....WHY?
Not an expert either (but you knew that), I don't think it's a weight issue...

The looks, handling, and weight of a modern sportbike combined with the civility and non-lethal response of an older Katana engine.

[hellcamp]

Is this gonna be black falcon's new ride at some point ?

[Jax]

Hey glad to see you made it back....

I'm kinda with Dee Dub on this one...I could see going from the RR engine to the Kat for more power, performance, etc...but why the other way??

The discussion we had last week I could see you asking if a Ninja 250 engine would fit...

Wait a sec...I think I know where you are going with this...

[Anonymous]

ok tom i think i get whats goign on here you want killer handling a sytle yet non of the instant wheelie power of a modern ss ok heres a few pics of something ive done thats similar i took a ninja 500 ex500 motor and stuffed it into a older zx7r a 90 zx7r to be exact i had it running all bolted in chain lined up made some custom motor mounts all the engien spacers and it ran pretty well it got sold to a neighbor and then wrecked a few weeks later cause he was trying to do endos with his buddies

[Dan Dubeau]

ok tom i think i get whats goign on here you want killer handling a sytle yet non of the instant wheelie power of a modern ss ok heres a few pics of something ive done thats similar i took a ninja 500 ex500 motor and stuffed it into a older zx7r a 90 zx7r to be exact i had it running all bolted in chain lined up made some custom motor mounts all the engien spacers and it ran pretty well it got sold to a neighbor and then wrecked a few weeks later cause he was trying to do endos with his buddies

I guess if ya can't lift the frontend, you might as well lift the rear

Tom are you talking about a kat engine into a newer water cooled gsxr? or an older oil cooled one? either way should work in theroy (just guessing since the new water cooled engines wont fit into a kat frame therefore making them bigger than the oil cooled engines therefore making a water cooled gsxr frame bigger which "should" accept an oil cooled (smaller) motor)

Just a question though. If you're gonna go through all this trouble just to have a good looking, good handling bike for BF with out the worry of the front end reaching for the sky all the time why don't you just put a smaller rear sprocket on. Cheaper than droping a new engine in it, and should be easier on his wallet come fillup time. Then every few months as his ridding progress' you can "add a tooth" to the rear until you get back to stock. Okay that last part was just a joke But doesn't it sound easy and effective

[Black_peter]

Is this gonna be black falcon's new ride at some point ?

I think you hit that nail on the head...

Looks like Sin has your recipe Tom...

[tdrcomm]

ok tom i think i get whats goign on here you want killer handling a sytle yet non of the instant wheelie power of a modern ss ...

NAIL ON HEAD!

Don't get me wrong, the SV is a fantastic bike and there is one in BF's future, but damnit, I wish I had some choices. The Ninja250 is an awesome learner but face it, it's almost 20 years old and looks kinda dorky. The next logical step is a 600. But the non-RR's are heavy and lack much on the style side, too. Ninja 500 - great bike but long in the tooth. GS500 - well, Suzuki tried but didn't have the guts to REALLY do something with the looks.

I don't give a damn what Suzuki corporate says, I believe that smaller displacement bikes (under 600cc) or non-RR bikes that have modern styling and handling WILL sell. Smaller riders, women, inexperienced newbies and new-to-bike folks just trying to save gas will buy bikes like this. They gravitate to cruisers or 600 RR bikes because there is a serious lack of choice over here in the US.

I don't buy the line that "those bikes will cut into the RR's sales". People are dumb but not stupid. Those that want an R6, Gix600, etc., will BUY them anyway. When gas hits $4.00 a gallon there will be a lot of the types of riders listed above looking hard at bikes. What do the Big 4 think? That they'll all be on Burgmans? There were 15 women in Lisa's MSF class. All but one would be riding a cruiser once they finished. And all said the sportbikes were too powerful and they couldn't put their feet on the ground. Met a kid at my Starbucks yesterday (reason for the rant) who road dirtbikes and wanted to pick my brain on streetbikes. Smart kid. I went through the usual list and then this R6 zooms by. He said, and I quote: "That looks SOOOO cool, but do they make them smaller? My buddy has an CBR and I road it and it scared the s**t outta me." Height-challenged riders shouldn't have to play tip-e-toes at every stoplight just to have fun on a sportsbike and newbies just out to commute and save a little gas shouldn't be stuck with a dull set of wheels.

Ever since Lisa got her M1 and BF has been learning on the 250, this has been bugging the crap outta me!

[Jax]

Like I said...the conversation we had last week....we need to get some of those Euro bikes here like the ZX-2, etc..

[thecynic]

You could always buy a buell blast

[crazymofo]

to answer the question, yes it can be done,, new engine mounts and a new custom midpipe made up for the exhaust. wiring and water cooler lines can be removed if so desired.

you do the path dan suggested and change the gearing to dumb it all down a little. or even go as far as retuning the original engine with restricted inlet and exhaust and reground cams with a retune of the carbs/efi, in order to cut back power,

how bout an 92-97 gixxer? gixxer 6's from the late 90's have a modern look, and carb fed. same era kawasaki's zx6r's the cbr f4/f4i's

but in the end of the day personlly i think that the easier, cheaper and far better option would be to invest time and money, training up BF.

you can do just as much harm on a 250cc bike as a 1000 on the road really... gutter, cars, roads they all feel the same when ya hit them, just the speed of which comes quicker on a 1000c. hell ive even done pernement damage to my shoulder socket on a 50cc cag bike!!

BF seems like a level headed kid, and yourself tom are an accomplished rider as well,with guidence from yourself and taking the time and the money to put him into a msf course and another course that involves advanced cornering and braking techniques (superbike school). we all know roadcraft and our cornering and braking skills are what keep us alive, no matter what we ride. so investging that knowledge into BF will quite posibly be the best thing for him, not a dumbed down sport bike with a still unforgiving chassis, just with 20hp less.

cheers.joe.

[The CyberPoet]

I'm guessing he's balking at the ideal of the ninja 500 (hey, it's hyper-nimble, under-weighs a GSXR, and my gf's ninja 500 will do 129 when I max out the throttle)... I still think it's the obvious answer. But if he's balking...

Maybe the right question to ask is what would it take to dumb-down a GSXR/R6/etc. to the point of having the power-output of a Kat (something touched on by both Dan & CrazyMofo)? The Germans do this all the time to various bikes (or more properly, the factories do this all the time to German bikes), offering dual performance levels for any given bike so that it can be ridden by both basic classes of motorcycle licenses. Even the Kat 600 was available in a restricted 33 HP version in the late model to fill this niche... And there's a cap on output for the French market as well (100 HP max on any bike). I'll bet if you ask the triumph factory boys, they may be able to make it happen for you on any current triumph...

There would be several ways to do it physically, with header restrictions being the most obvious one (power-commander would be necessary to compensate for the change in fueling). Cam changes would be another reasonably simple way of changing the whole nature of the bike; grind a different set with an emphasis on more low-end torque and less top-end HP. There was a good write up on this back in Sep/Nov time frame in Bike UK (they used the old FZR's cams in the new FZR to gain more mid-range torque instead of having such a rev-rich bike).
Electronically, limiting the RPMs would also do it very simplistically & be able to be upped occasionally (and if I recall right, there are some controllers that will do this, something akin to the PowerCommander), but I wouldn't doubt that any teen as motivated and smart as BF would figure out how to install a switch to get around anything like that (electronic restrictor) you might install...

You could simply get a mid-ground bike that cross-over, such as the 99-01 VFR...

The other route is a bit less than legal, but probably still feasible, at least if you register the bike outside California (not sure about what loops you'd have to go through to register it in California and pass inspection): buy foreign. Get exactly what you want, bring it in as a "non-street use" bike (thus exempt from the US homogonization standards) and then get something with a healthy VIN from an older bike of similar displacement and transfer the VIN info (new VIN stickers -- you're a graphic artist; how hard can it be) & trash the donor frame that the VIN came from so it can never be reregistered. I wonder if the same restrictions in models that you find in the US market are necessarily also in place in Canada?

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Mojoe]

Re: WIERD ENGINE SWAP QUESTION...

I've got an engine swap question. I warn you, I'm no Crazymofo, Waltari, or Mojoe, so if this sounds off the wall remember, I did offer this disclaimer:

Is it possible to drop a Kat 600 engine INTO a GSXR 600 (or R6, ZX6 or CBR 600) frame? Is it too heavy for the newer frame? Would it throw the bike's balance off?

Just a thought (I think you guys know where I'm going with this)

sorry Tom....I can't help you on this one. I am too busy trying to imagine how I can stuff my spare 1100 motor into my spare gs550f frame.