[TheSteve]

Do you ever plan on controlling ignition timing? If not then the MS2 is pretty much a waste. The MS2 supports all the extras like idle controllers, native ignition timing control, multitooth VR wheel decoding, etc. Its nothing you'll need on almost all motorcycles due to their inherent simplicity.

The 3.0 board is pretty nice for the extra hookups and native VR circuit as well as the proto area, etc. Again its not really needed here unless you need ign timing control. If I did it again id still buy the MS1 2.2 for this bike. For the GSXR I bought the MS1 3.0 because while I need VR decoding for the tach input I still don't need 3/4 of the functionality of the MS2.

Microsquirt looks very nice but for the price its not worth it to me. Maybe if I had a completely stripped down bike with no room under the seat.

[Cheech]

I thought ignition timing was controlled by the signal rotor which is mechanical, unless I'm missing something.

[TheSteve]

The signal rotor is a steel disc bolted to the crank. The sensor for that is basically an unpowered electromagnet. When the steel points of the rotor pass by the magnet, it generates a small voltage spike. This spike is what triggers the igniter to fire the coils. This is known as a VR sensor.

So what we have at this point is a fixed timing signal. It will spike at XX degrees from top dead center of each cylinder no matter the RPM. So now the igniter box takes this AC waveform, converts it into a square wave DC signal, identifies which is cylinder 1 (from the irregular tooth), determines RPM, and sets the ignition advance based on that. On a post, it also factors in the throttle position sensor which is why the posts feel slow and weak if the TPS is unplugged.

If youre NOT controlling ignition, you can get an RPM signal from the grounds of the coils. If you ARE controlling ignition timing this wont work. Sort of a "chicken and egg" thing; the MS would have to see the coils firing to figure out when to fire the coils.

So if you want to control ignition you ideally would want to pick up the RPM signal straight off the VR sensor. Unfortunately the MS doesnt understand the long tooth of the trigger wheel, so at this point this too would become a fuel-only install on the katana. The old GSXRs I believe had 2 VR sensor pickups using a 1 tooth wheel. This setup works fine with MS controlling timing. If I was to try and control timing on the Kat I would probably disconnect the igniter from the coils, use the igniter's coil wires as the tach input with a twin trigger (to tell MS which is cyl 1), and use the ignition driver in the MS plus a 2nd driver to power the coils directly.

The problem with this is that the signal you'd pick up wouldn't be TDC, it would be the pre-advanced signal. So if the trigger wheel is at 5*BTDC, the igniters advance is 10*BTDC, and the MS is set to advance to 5* BTDC your total timing would be 20 degrees before top dead center. The only issue here is you'd never know your true timing since no one knows the stock igniters advance curve. Additionally, even with the MS set at zero degrees your timing retard amount would still be restricted to the timing dictated by the igniter. Shouldnt really be an issue unless youre running a VERY strange configuration. Even then you could perform the DIY ignition advance mod in reverse to retard the signal, then use MS to bring it back to wherever you need it.

Sorry for the long-winded post. With something like this there are tons and tons of different options if you hadnt noticed. I can try to MSPaint a few diagrams to help explain

[TheSteve]

Edit:

After drawing it out, its not going to work. The 2nd coil acting as the reset pulse but firing twice/cycle will just confuse the MS and cause it to lose sync. The only two options are:

1. Retrofit a GSXR signal generator to your katana (pictured below). Use an MS2 CPU running MS2-Extra firmware. Preferably on a 3.0 board, but either work and both will need modification. Youll need 2 VR inputs and 2 coil driver outputs. For the 3.0 this means either building a 2nd VR circuit on a daughterboard or using an HEI module, AND wiring in a second ignition driver (VB921) to an additional CPU output. For the 2.2 board, you need to build 2 VR circuits (or run 2 HEIs) and add 2 VB921 drivers. MS1 is NOT supported for this mode.

2. Wait for the Suzuki trigger wheel to be coded. This is a common wheel for nearly all 4 cyl carbed Suzukis, but still don't hold your breath. You may also consider making alot of noise on the msextra.com forums to see if someone will take interest and code it for you with you as a beta tester.


If the pic wont show, see here: http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/MS2-...in_Trigger.htm
And I have no idea what years this came off of. It was either the oil cooled GSXRs or the 93-95 water cooled ones. Check the ronayers fiche, it may show it in more detail

[Cheech]

I'm confused. So are you saying setting up the MS2 to control timing AND fueling won't work unless the signal generator is swapped for a GSXR (I'm assuming from the same model as the throttle body, 01-03?) So then timing should continue to be controlled mechanically, the TB/ECU will just handle fueling, and I don't have to rip my engine apart to swap signal generators?

Thanks immensely for the help on this.

[TheSteve]

Right, fueling is the easy part because the injections aren't really timed to specific events. Ignition on the other hand must be perfect within a single degree so its much harder to get a working control system set up for that. The only way to do both right now looks to be the GSXR trigger, but the Katana setup will work just fine for fuel-only (how I have mine now).

[Cheech]

Excellent. I got a little confused until I remembered that your newer posts are referencing putting on a MS system for a GSXR that you need the VR circuits for. I think I have everything straight now.

For the MS1 install, is something like this: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...unit-p-32.html necessary to do what I'm looking for?

[TheSteve]

The relay board probably wouldnt be too necessary for this, and it would take up even more space. I added in a single relay of my own to control both the MS and fuel pump. It does make it much easier to do the wiring though since instead of soldering wires to the connector you can just use the screw terminals on the relay board

[TheSteve]

The other thing I forgot to mention is the relay board does not have a top to its case. The relays are too tall for it. It shouldn't really matter but if you're looking for a durable water resistant install you may want to avoid it, or find/make a cover. Humidity won't hurt anything here but I'd still aim to avoid actual water getting on the board.

[Cheech]

Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm still on the fence, I know it would make wiring much easier but at the added expense of losing even more under-seat real estate and having to fab a water-tight cover for it.

[TheSteve]

Check this out instead: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/1...eady-p-43.html

Its a prefab harness that includes a DB37 connector with all the leads soldered already and all the wires labelled. So you'd just have to run the wires where they need to go and solder them there instead of having to make the entire thing from scratch

[Cheech]

Thanks for the find. I think it might already come with the harness (I know the Microsquirt does) but it's good to know anyway.

Just got my 03 GSXR throttle body in today, needs a little cleaning but is otherwise in good shape. Hope to get the MS1 and assorted goodies next week if money allows.

[TheSteve]

It doesn't really come with much of a harness. It includes the DB37 connector with solder cups to solder your own wires in. Its one of the more tedious parts of the assembly especially with larger wires.

[TheSteve]

Well ive been looking everywhere for one of the direct fit fuel pumps, but I can't find any. The two I did find last week both skyrocketed in price right before the end of the auction. I'm not sure I could justify spending $190 on a used pump anyway.

I think I'll do something similar to the Katana then. Pull the stock pump out completely, run an external pump and regulator, tap a return line in the bottom of the tank. Apart from the pump I have everything ready to go. I loaned the Katana to a friend of mine until he gets his bike running so there won't be any progress until I have another vehicle to use during the downtime.

[ITS_NOT_A_KNIFE]

why not use a dyna 4000 to control your ignition and the ms to control fuel