[smileyman]

tzortn wrote:smileyman wrote:
Bikes don't have to worry too much about lift since they are narrow and it is difficult to get air underneath.


Is this true? I would argue that when leaned over, especially at race speeds, lift becomes a major issue. That is why I make the comment earlier about drag not being the only measure of aerodynamic efficiency. Motorcycle land speed racers work great in a straight line. I would bet that making a turn is a whole other ball game.

You are correct sir! I spoke of this in an earlier in regards to straight line versus cornering or in windy conditions.

Cyberpoet wrote:smileyman wrote:
Speaking of sonic and sub sonic flight, a little trivia...Can anyone guess which aircraft design was the first to come to grips with the air compressability problem? Hint Hint WW2? I will post back later with the answer.


Which air compressability problem -- are we talking about the wing issue or the engine-feed issues for various engines?
For wings, I'm guessing your talking about the Messerschmitt (ME262) swept wing design, which actually originates in the earlier Pfeilfluegel II.
On the engine end, there are a host of aircraft that qualify, some dating to prior to WW2 as well (and the V1 buzz bomb with it's pulse-jet also plays games with air compressibility).

Cheers,

I was actually refering to wing isssues such as were encountered by the P38 Lightning. Compressability was locking the rear rudder and sometimes tearing the rear wing/rudder off the twin boom tail in steep dives. This was fixed for the first time by raising the tail out of the flow of the main wing. Later in the war the swept wing designs were developed by Germany to address the main wing issues with ME262.


Ain't this debate fun. First forum I have ever been in and a discussion not turned into a flaming potato. Katana riders must be very mature and obliging!!

[FloridaKat]

Re: I stand corrected

Great responses.

FloridaKat, you've clearly got more knowledge on this subject. I've messed with planes ( a little ) and racecars (a ****load) Formula 2000, Winged Sprints and pavement Late Models. But everything you have said rings true. So I'll hush and learn !

My race engines are built in Ocala, we need to hook up for a ride down there sometime, y'all have some great back roads there !

I ran a Formula Ford once....at a monitored driving school. It was at Nazareth Speedway (a 1 mile oval). I couldn't believe I got black flagged for not lifting in a turn!

The roads probably have changed since you were last down here. Every back country, rural road is now situated in between the 55+ communities. But, I'm up for a ride sometime.

BTW - Ocala Speedway is now open (every Friday night). I think they have the TARPA (?) winged sprints, but not sure.

[mod4]

I'll pm you next time I am heading down there.
Ocala runs TBARA Sprints (Tampa Bay Area Racing Association) but those are pavement guys.

I race Putnam County and Volusia County dirt tracks currently.... my profile has my racing webpage info

[Range]

my penis is tapered, and sometimes, when I get going too fast, I lift.....should I add a spoiler or an airdam?


Floridakat...you said most of the downforce of an Indycar is in its undertray, but look at the immediate and catastrophic results of what occures when the rear wing is torn off a vehicle. Consequently, the front wings will generate equal force on the front, and if they are removed, the car will not turn. It is a balance of EVERY component in the cars aero-package....which....getting back to the beginning of my post....I need an aero for my "package".

[FloridaKat]

Floridakat...you said most of the downforce of an Indycar is in its undertray, but look at the immediate and catastrophic results of what occures when the rear wing is torn off a vehicle. Consequently, the front wings will generate equal force on the front, and if they are removed, the car will not turn. It is a balance of EVERY component in the cars aero-package....which....getting back to the beginning of my post....I need an aero for my "package".

Most of the downforce means >50%, which IS generated by the undertray.

I'm not sure what your saying here, but when you have a catastrophic failure of a rear wing at racing/qualifying speeds, the instantaneous disruption of downforce can, and often will, cause an accident. This is even more pronounced in a turn.

The downforce generated by the front wing CAN be equal to the rear downforce for a given FW/RW angle. However, more often than not, they are not equal (why do you think the pit crews add "turns" to the adjusters during pit stops?). The front wing adjustment typically is tuned for correcting oversteer/understeer in combination with the rear wing (I'm excluding mechanical grip items such as dampers, tires, packers, shocks, springs, etc.).

Adding more aero grip are wickerbills on the trailing edge of the rear wing (and even some front wing configurations). The fuglehorns also add some downforce to the back of the car, but I think their contribution is minimal.

[smileyman]

I think I remember reading back in the original ZX12R introduction materials that the tiny canard style wings/protrusions on the side of that bikes lower cowlings were supposed to prevent lift? I will try and search my library for the review, but I remember laughing at the possibility.

[FloridaKat]

I think I remember reading back in the original ZX12R introduction materials that the tiny canard style wings/protrusions on the side of that bikes lower cowlings were supposed to prevent lift? I will try and search my library for the review, but I remember laughing at the possibility.

Probably aimed for higher cornering speeds. Actually, it wouldn't be difficult to add those to our Kats, but I doubt any of us go above 70 mph when the aerodynamics really kick in.

[FloridaKat]

I'll pm you next time I am heading down there.
Ocala runs TBARA Sprints (Tampa Bay Area Racing Association) but those are pavement guys.

I race Putnam County and Volusia County dirt tracks currently.... my profile has my racing webpage info

Read your racing background mod4. You're proof that given a love (i.e. motorsports) the human spirit can triumph. I offer my congradulations and thank you for the K-Mart gas grill story!

Now to see some real racing, come down to St. Pete next weekend and watch the IRL put on a show downtown. We went last year and thought it was an order of magnitude more entertaining than the Indy 500.

[Range]

thanks for the answer FK.....that clearifies your initial reply to me.....I have seen several instances of the rear wing coming off and the car immediatly losing grip.