My 600cc and 750cc Theory. Please respond.

[mx916]

I notice a new trend in the past few years. The Ninja 636, The SV 650, The Ninja 650, the Daytona 650 and now the Daytona 675. Does'nt it seem like we are just slowly going to resurrect the defunct 750 class.
(less the GSXR 750). If so many people want something more than 600cc
why dont the manufacturers try to work with the insurance companies to stop the huge jump in rates between a 600 and a 750. Also push the AMA to restructure its racing classes to bring back 750s. I know this would be very involved, but it seems we are moving in that direction displacement-wise anyway. Give your thoughts.

[WildKat]

Suzuki is really the only big manufacturer left that still cashes in on 750 open sportbike class anymore. I'd venture a safe guess without looking at any hard sales data, that its certainly been worth their while to keep the 750 in production after the others have stopped. There's something to be said for the mid liter bike if you will. Not quite the insurance hit or price tag of the liter bikes, but certainly a viable option for someone who wants more than 600 has to offer, but isnt ready for Liter bike yet.

[woobie]

I think the companies are starting to realize it's not all about racing victories.

Give the people what they want and they will buy it. In the end all those podium finishes don't mean squat if the Sales figures don't back it up.

[Black_peter]

I think the companies are starting to realize it's not all about racing victories..

Well don't forget that the Ninja 635 (or whatever it is)
Keeps up the pace with the Gixxer 1000..
(Stock anyway)
I seem to remember that Aprillia campained a 400 that spanked the
larger bikes.(or maybe it was a 400 twin against the 500GPs?)
Weight is important in racing. Thats why Ducati was able to
dominate. Even with the displacement advantage they had in the
'90s they were still down on horse power. But the weight gave them a boost.

A 600 based bike is lighter than a 750 based one.
So if you open it up to the max displacement other than the
larger pistons you have an advantage. I think these bikes are hoping to
become the 750 class..

[WildKat]

I think these bikes are hoping to
become the 750 class..

If they keep pushing the limits like they have been every year, they will be

Ive always thought it was kind of a shame to see all the 750 class sportbikes go, but there just isnt enough demand for them right now with the 600's getting bigger and better every year and liter bikes blowing the envelope wide open. There might be in the future though, if manufacturers keep gettting bigger and bigger, we'll need a 3rd class I would think. The 600's, 1000's , and the stratospheric super bikes like the busa's and ZX14's and you know sooner or later Honda and Yamaha will join that group.

[Range]

people put to much emphasis on displacement!


BTW...I have a 750 Kat!

[BobKat2002]

Re: My 600cc and 750cc Theory. Please respond.

Also push the AMA to restructure its racing classes to bring back 750s. I know this would be very involved, but it seems we are moving in that direction displacement-wise anyway. Give your thoughts.

I was watching Windtunnel last fall and the president of the AMA was being interviewed by Mr. Despain.

Apparently, the provisions are already in place to accomidate 750s, it's just that non of the manufactures are biting.
They'd also like to see a contingency of European bikes represented too, but so far thats not happening either.

[OldandReallySlow]

OK, first of all, no 636 has ever kept up with a 1K gix!! They might be a touch more nimble (though thats debatable too) but keeping up??? The 750 is the perfect bike for canyons or track. 600 size with lots more oumph and HP. Don't forget that MotoGP is coming back down to 800cc's so 750cc will look alot more interesting to the other manufacturers.

[WildKat]

people put to much emphasis on displacement!


BTW...I have a 750 Kat!

But the manufacturers here "cha ching" every time they roll out a new model the motorcycling community generally does just that..atleast the younger generation IMO...if everyone actually bought the bike that fit them best and that they were most comfortable on and could handle, I dont think you'd see near as many liter bikes on the road as you might think.

[freight dog]

OK, first of all, no 636 has ever kept up with a 1K gix!! They might be a touch more nimble (though thats debatable too) but keeping up??? The 750 is the perfect bike for canyons or track. 600 size with lots more oumph and HP. Don't forget that MotoGP is coming back down to 800cc's so 750cc will look alot more interesting to the other manufacturers.

Exactly what I was thinking. The repli-bikes follow the racing classes. With GP changing, the 750's might make a comeback. In defense of the GSXR 750, it only weighs less than 10 pounds more than the 600 but it is claimed to be about 20% more powerful.

[The CyberPoet]

The ability to differenciate between track performance and street performance is lost on much of the younger crowd, especially in this day and age of dealers no longer making test rides of new bikes standard. The factories spend hundreds of millions (in the case of Honda, possibly even Billions) of dollars in their motorcycle racing efforts, and try to translate that into marketable clout, churning out bikes that have weak mid-ranges but astounding top-end performance. The real shame is that most of the technology on the grid isn't what's on the street, with MotoGP being filled with a ton of V-4 engines (and a V-5 engine), while the same manufacturers hawk inline-transverse 4 cylinders for the street. Even Suzuki is guilt of this, repeatedly running their 4-cylinder V-engine as their entry, although no current Suzuki for the street uses that engine.

But a number of factories are starting to wisen up and realize that this track-driven performance concept isn't always appealing to the masses when it comes to the real world (esp. if your team's performance isn't stellar), and thus various manufacturers have started cranking out over-sized bikes for the real world, such as Kawak's 636, Suzuki's SV-650, and in one extreme example (Triumph), walking away from the whole track metaphor completely (the Triumph 675 seriously embodies this new direction for Triumph). It could be argued that the Bandit 650 (Europe-only so far) also expresses this, but the reality is that the Bandit 650 puts out about the same power as the old Bandit 600 design and the 50cc's pretty much offsets the power-loss induced by the catalytic converters and leaner settings required by the new pollution control requirements.

I think the biggest eye opener for many manufacturers was last year's article in Bike UK (or was it TWO?), in which an R6 engine was sliced and diced, with older Fazer cams and revised fueling to match. That engine was then replanted into the R6 and an unmodified R6 was put side-by-side with it. The magazine brought in 21 testers (5 pro's, plus 16 reader-volunteers, or some such) and let them test the two bikes back-to-back without any input on which was which. Out of the 21 testers, only 1 preferred the unmodified engine with the top-end power; the other 20 all rated the modified one with the hefty increase in mid-range torque as greatly superior. I know triumph's corporate boys were paying close attention and it really hit home for them, spurring the emphasis on real-world performance to be phased in harder and faster than previously planned.

The real question in my mind is what will happen with the 1000cc class over the next five years as the new rules put the 800cc displacement volume cap in MotoGP (the place where the manufacturers all spend the majority of their pavement-racing dollars)... Will liter bikes become passe, or will we not see a large crop of streetable 800cc offerings to mimic the track offerings? Suzuki & Ducati definitely have the jump here, being able to field commerical 800cc machines very quickly (Suzuki simply reboring/restroking their 750; Ducati already having 800cc offerings that could be tweaked for more performance).

On a side note:
There's a reason that BMW continues to sell motorcycles so sucessfully. (IMH It is not reliability (they do break down at about the same rate as other bikes when maintained to the same levels), it's not image (they aren't the most beautiful bikes by any stretch of the imagination, esp. at their price-points). It's strictly the fact that they are increadibly torque-rich across the whole RPM spectrum, which gives them a real-world edge...

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet

[Omegaman]

OK, let's not forget how we got here in the first place.

Way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, the "Domestic" motorcycle market complained that the "Import" motorcycle market was killing their U.S. based profit. The "Import" market had recently introduced a 750cc bike that was awesome. Faster, smoother and more reliable than anything ever built. They therfore put a large tariff on any bike 700cc or larger. Hence the spate of 699cc bikes. During that time the sportbike market was in it's infancy but ready to explode. The outcome was 1000cc behemoth sportbikes, a bunch of 700cc cruisers and the 600cc class was born.

The result?

The Gubbmint bailed out the "Domestic" market (which was only Harley) with a whole lot of cash (which you and I paid for) and the "Import" market had 699cc cruisers that were lighter, quieter and more comfortable than any HOG ever developed. Oh yeah, they also created a whole new sector of bikes that we all are riding.

EVERYBODY wants more performance than their 600cc's, The fact that displacement is now creeping up is just a result of the quest for better performance. Nothing wrong with that. If everyone was happy with the 600cc performance, nobody would buy aftermarket pipes and jets.

Unbelievably, nobody in the U.S. has had the grit to actually make something that works from a performance perspective. We just sat back and watch while they kick our a$$e$ for the past 25 years.

Carl-

[dragkota]

"There is no replacement for displacement"
Oh yeah did I mention I am looking for a 750 to put in my 600 frame

[Kat-A-Tonic]

There's a reason that BMW continues to sell motorcycles so sucessfully. (IMH It is not reliability (they do break down at about the same rate as other bikes when maintained to the same levels), it's not image (they aren't the most beautiful bikes by any stretch of the imagination, esp. at their price-points). It's strictly the fact that they are increadibly torque-rich across the whole RPM spectrum, which gives them a real-world edge...

I have to agree that torque is more important than raw high-end horsepower for everyday riding.

[gsxr6racer]

The real question in my mind is what will happen with the 1000cc class over the next five years as the new rules put the 800cc displacement volume cap in MotoGP (the place where the manufacturers all spend the majority of their pavement-racing dollars)... Will liter bikes become passe, or will we not see a large crop of streetable 800cc offerings to mimic the track offerings?

I don't think the manufacturers will have a problem selling 1000's when MotoGP changes. Didn't the whole liter bike thing star in '98 with the R1, as small as a 600 with 1000cc power!!! MotoGP was still 2 strokes then, so I don't see it being a problem to keep selling "1000cc powered 600's" as many people think they are. I think we are going to see a resurgence of the 750 class, myself, the 636, the 675, almost there with that Triumph. And if MotoGP goes to 800 that just gives 750's more "street cred", I think. I can imagine it now, "Well those MotoGP bikes are only 50cc bigger than my bike! My bike must be the sh!t!!" Personally the older I get the more I want a bike I don't have to bang down 2 gears to pass the idiot motorhomes that we have around here all summer!! I just want to hit it and get a big rush of mid range torque... mmmm... torque....