[SweetLou]

Don't get me wrong, I still like carbs. Sure, FI is nice, but lets face it, it is a LOT cheaper when it comes to tuning carbs with changing jets and what not. Specially compared to the cost of getting a Power Commander.

[Wingspan]

There's a couple problems with your notion:

(A) You're comparing it mostly to two-cylinder (the exception is the FZ6), semi-faired single-headlight bikes, which are cheaper to build & transport in general. The fact that these others have significantly lower cargo load capabilities also plays into it.

I'm not sure what the number of headlights has to do with it, but all the bikes I listed except the 650R have 2. They also have waterpumps, radiators, and engine electronics that the Katana does not.

I won't argue that the Kat is more expensive to transport, it's heavier. That's not exactly something I'd put in the Kat's "Pro" column.

Do you actually have REAL info reguarding the production costs of the bikes I listed? Real data, not guesses or opinions? If you do, I'd love to see it. Even if you do, and it proves you correct I doubt it would sway my opinion (see my response to your point C).

I haven't been able to locate load data online for these bikes, so I can't make any specific comments about it. As a general observation, I would point out that most of these bikes use equivalent tires and the Katana has the heaviest dry weight of bunch. That means it's closer to the max load of the tires than the others before you even put fuel in it.

(B) Personally, I'm happy that it's not water cooled -- it was part of my purchasing decision, because I used to run around with roasted (almost black) ankles on my other bikes from the fans kicking on in the summer at traffic lights & dumping that heat at my ankles.

To each their own, but I'd rather live with hot ankles than have my bike overheat at a long stop light during the summer (my Katana did). Would you agree that a liquid cooled engine should have a longer life than an air cooled? I think even a passing glance at vehical technology in general shows that liquid cooling is superior overall.

(C) There's no way they could push the price-point for the Kat to $4k and continue to build them in Japan. If they farmed the work out to South Korea, or somewhere else where labor is cheaper in the PacRim, the price-point could be driven down by probably as much as $1k, but the quality of workmanship would almost assuredly faulter as a result. If you think about transport costs and mark-ups along the way, a $4k price-point at the dealer would have to be deliverable to US shores at $3k, and have a build-cost (including some factory profit margin) $2650 or so -- and that's simply an unrealistic price point for a modern 600 coming out of a 1st world country.

I don't disagree with any of this. You have valid arguements as to why the Katana is priced as it is. However, it does nothing to explain why, as a consumer, I should be willing to pay that price. If bikes like the SV, DL, and FZ6 can be built and sold at the same price point as the Katana, then there is no reason a Katana couldn't be built to the same technology standard as it's competition in the marketplace.

[The CyberPoet]

To each their own, but I'd rather live with hot ankles than have my bike overheat at a long stop light during the summer (my Katana did). Would you agree that a liquid cooled engine should have a longer life than an air cooled? I think even a passing glance at vehical technology in general shows that liquid cooling is superior overall.

I believe you probably already know all this stuff, but I'll explain in detail for those following along who don't yet...
Actually, I believe that an oil-air cooled engine should enjoy (on average) a longer lifespan than an water-cooled engine given similarly restrained HP levels and normal duty cycles. Why do I say this? Because oil-cooled engines have one large advantage: they warm up virtually all of the metal parts at a consistent rate, meaning that heat-expansion-dffierential related wear levels and temperature-differential fatigue should be lower. Additionally, overheating an oil-cooled engine tends to do less damage to the engine itself (water overheating turns to steam, causing a pressure build-up and often resulting in warped heads and other maladies that simply don't befall the Kat). The fact that you overheated your Kat makes me question how long the traffic light was and whether your oil was actually up to the task at hand.
The big downside to oil-air cooling is the total power levels readily attainable (because increasing compression increases heat output as well as power, and water carried heat away much faster than oil, permitting use of higher compression rates at combustion chamber).

(C) There's no way they could push the price-point for the Kat to $4k and continue to build them in Japan. If they farmed the work out to South Korea, or somewhere else where labor is cheaper in the PacRim, the price-point could be driven down by probably as much as $1k, but the quality of workmanship would almost assuredly faulter as a result. If you think about transport costs and mark-ups along the way, a $4k price-point at the dealer would have to be deliverable to US shores at $3k, and have a build-cost (including some factory profit margin) $2650 or so -- and that's simply an unrealistic price point for a modern 600 coming out of a 1st world country.

I don't disagree with any of this. You have valid arguements as to why the Katana is priced as it is. However, it does nothing to explain why, as a consumer, I should be willing to pay that price. If bikes like the SV, DL, and FZ6 can be built and sold at the same price point as the Katana, then there is no reason a Katana couldn't be built to the same technology standard as it's competition in the marketplace.

Agreed that you may not understand why you might buy a Kat at the price-point it's listed at. Fortunately, discounting is very prevelant in the industry, and I can generally get Kats on-the-road for SRP (or less), including taxes, tags, title, prep, etc., here in Florida. That makes their actual price-point (new) about $600 lower than the SRP on the 600's in my mind (and the discount on the 750 can be as high as $1100). I can't get anywhere near that kind of pricing on the FZ6 in our area (no discounting on Yami's here)...

Out of the bikes you listed above, aside from the Kat, the only one I would consider for my uses would be the FZ6; the others aren't as well suited to my actual riding habits (600+ mile days back-to-back, Florida-summer-foul-weather high-speed commuting). Being a well-informed buyer, this played heavily into my purchasing decision on both of the Kats I have had to date. I love not having my ankles boiled (I've had days where the skin literally peeled off from my previous bike, a Honda), having minimal maintenance and virtually zero worries at an extremely low dollar-per-mile figure.

I love the SV, and would enjoy having one just for about town, but I wouldn't want to use it to replace my Kat for the duties the Kat actually sees. But then again, I may be an oddity -- I love the Kat for what it is & does, and not as a stepping stone on a quest for more this-or-that, or as a purchase of a lesser dream because I couldn't afford a better one at the time.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Wingspan]

The fact that you overheated your Kat makes me question how long the traffic light was and whether your oil was actually up to the task at hand.

Hmm...Did you not post this:

Example: coming back from the KR rally a few weeks ago, I was tooling along at 85 - 90 mph for hours on end (except for gas stops). Outside Valdosta (about 95 degrees, 90% humidity), I hit a 10 mile patch of stop-n-walking speed traffic due to a semi-trailer that had broken (the cops had sealed all but one lane of highway). Slowly, the oil temp gauge started climbing... when it hit 350 and was bouncing violently towards 400, I got off the highway for a few minutes at the next available exit, rode a couple miles to drop the temp again, then came back and got in traffic -- this time with the engine off. If I had just sat there, the oil temp would have easily hit a temp that it couldn't readily cope with without breaking down, etc.

Let me understand this, your bike can exibit signs of overheating and that's ok. If mine does the same (in a similar situation, btw) then you automatically assume that I must not have been running a proper oil?

Whatever, as with many of your other arguements, this really has nothing to do with my thoughts on the matter. Whether better or worse, air cooled engines are typically cheaper to make. Just one more reason the Katana should be cheaper than it's competition.

Agreed that you may not understand why you might buy a Kat at the price-point it's listed at. Fortunately, discounting is very prevelant in the industry, and I can generally get Kats on-the-road for SRP (or less), including taxes, tags, title, prep, etc., here in Florida. That makes their actual price-point (new) about $600 lower than the SRP on the 600's in my mind (and the discount on the 750 can be as high as $1100). I can't get anywhere near that kind of pricing on the FZ6 in our area (no discounting on Yami's here)...

Katanas are not the only bikes that are subject to discounts. As I said before, I've seen a new SVS on a local dealers floor tagged at $5k (nearly $1500 under MSRP before taxes). My friend with the FZ6 paid slightly less than MSRP out the door (all taxes, etc).

Out of the bikes you listed above, aside from the Kat, the only one I would consider for my uses would be the FZ6; the others aren't as well suited to my actual riding habits (600+ mile days back-to-back, Florida-summer-foul-weather high-speed commuting).

I am a big fan of the FZ. It's a terrific little bike that IMO is everything the Katana should be.

I love the SV, and would enjoy having one just for about town, but I wouldn't want to use it to replace my Kat for the duties the Kat actually sees. But then again, I may be an oddity -- I love the Kat for what it is & does, and not as a stepping stone on a quest for more this-or-that, or as a purchase of a lesser dream because I couldn't afford a better one at the time.

That's great, I'm happy for you. But IMO the Katana is way overdue for a major update and until it gets one it isn't worth the money Suzuki wants for them. As a used bike (or if you happen to snag a deep discount) great, it's a solid performer but for my uses there are much better bikes on the market for the same money (most notably the FZ6).[/b]

[The CyberPoet]

[NOTE: most of this debate between Wingspan and I has been moved to PM's, so some issues raised will not be addressed here -- I felt we were wondering too far off-topic in some parts of our debate]

I agree that oil-air cooled engine based motorcycles should be cheaper by definition than a water-cooled equivilent, as long as production quantities are similiar. And I agree that the costs should be down instead of up for '06 (although the spike in fuel prices to power the factory and transport the vehicles probably plays into this year's price-point heavily).

I am a big fan of the FZ. It's a terrific little bike that IMO is everything the Katana should be.

I can appreciate that sentiment

There are features of the FZ6 (& FZ6 Fazer) that I really wish the Kat had, including primarily fuel injection and the aluminum delta-box frame (and resultant curb weight).

I'm not arguing with you about it... just sharing differences of opinions as to why I specifically choose the Kat over the FZ6 (& FZ6 Fazer).
(yes, I know I'm about to introduce yet another model into the debate):
The choice for me wasn't between the FZ6 and the Kat, but between the YFZ600R (in Yamaha's line-up) and the Kat (in Suzuki's) because full-fairings sufficient to bad-weather riding were one of the "must-have" criteria in my decision making process. There were other contenders from various manufacturers evaluated critically as well...

...But IMO the Katana is way overdue for a major update and until it gets one it isn't worth the money Suzuki wants for them. As a used bike (or if you happen to snag a deep discount) great, it's a solid performer but for my uses there are much better bikes on the market for the same money (most notably the FZ6).[/b]

I agree that the Kat is due for a serious overhaul, and if I were in charge of such things, it would get one pronto... And that compared to the new vs new at the MSRP-price-points of the FZ6-Fazer & Kats, it is a debatable purchase decision that for most riders might well cause them to favor the FZ6 or FZ6 Fazer over of the Kat.

Used vs. Used, I feel the YFZ600R is generally the better deal if you can get it at anywhere close to the same price-point as the Kat for the same year/approximate mileage/condition/etc. For the same reasons the FZ6 vs Kat (new vs new) is debatable in my mind, the used-vs-used at same-price point is also debatable... but again, many riders may well find the FZ6 as a better bike for their particular needs -- but by the same logic, most would find the SV a better choice yet.

In my particular case though, I put high value on factors that probably don't matter much to most riders when it came time to make my last couple purchase decisions, which reflect the actual riding I do most of the time.
As I mentioned previously, full fairings that offer a reasonable degree of foul-weather protection was a mandatory part of my decision process (which eliminates the FZ6 Fazer right there, taking it out of contention), the underseat exhausts (another deal-killer, as I do live in a vertiable hot-house most of the year), as were the lower maintenance levels (& increased odds of completing several-thousand-mile trips without serious interruptions), the lighting (the 98+ Kats do put significantly more light to the ground than the Yami's IMHO), and other periphreal issues.

Cheers
=-= The CyberPoet