Grinding into Second, Hard into first.

[BlackburnD]

I think I need to adjust my clutch cable, but lets see what you all think. At high RPM's it grinds, and slams into second. That is if it goes at all. Alot of the time it will just go to neutral. When at a stop it's hard to get it back into first sometimes. Sometimes yes sometimes no.
I also think my chain is loose. I don't know if there is like a chain guide that the chain is suppose to drag or rub across, but the chain is laying on a piece of weird looking metal on top of the swing arm between the sprockets. If anyone has any anwsers for me I would appreciate it. Looks like I may get to wrench on my bike........

[Special K]

How many miles on it?

Maybe adjust the clutch (minor adjustement at teh handle bar/lever, major adjustment at the sprocket cover)

Maybe change the oil and filter if its been a long time
Maybe make sure you HAVE enough oil in it!

CHAIN:
There should be a rubber PAD on the top of the fornt of the swingarm.....

Your chain should have about 1/2" of freeplay in it at the point half way between the sprockets. 3/4" MAX

[The CyberPoet]

Re: Grinding into Second, Hard into first.

SpecialK knows what he is talking about...

But I'm going to add some stuff in here:

At high RPM's it grinds, and slams into second. That is if it goes at all. Alot of the time it will just go to neutral.

What RPM levels are we talking about here? There's a thing called a shift indent spring kit that will help provide more reliable shifting, esp into 2nd and help prevent damages (I sell those kits - $38.50), but it won't fix a bent shift fork or existing tranny damages.

I also think my chain is loose. I don't know if there is like a chain guide that the chain is suppose to drag or rub across, but the chain is laying on a piece of weird looking metal on top of the swing arm between the sprockets.

For the Kats, this is the right adjustment amount (ideally 1" of slack, measured on the centerstand -- using 0.8" will cause the chain to wear out very quickly):


You can quickly check to see if you chain is elongated by tugging on it as shown in this pic -- if you can lift the chain more than 1mm off the rear sprocket, it's time for a new chain and sprockets.


If you want more understanding on chains, wear and when to replace, go see my Understanding motorcycle chain wear, maintenance and adjustment.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[MXG286]

As for the chain.... You should only be able to push up the center of the bottom of the chain like 1.25 inches when its on the ground. Any more and you need to tighten the chain any less then 1 inch and you need to slacken it.

As for the trans 1st to second is pretty rough its a distance and I hear that this is a common problem. As for getting it into first if you are reving the engine it definately will not go into 1st or if the bike is idleing to high you might have the same problem go second to first.

[BlackburnD]

We are talking generally about 7-8k up shifting. For example like a somewhat hard take off. I don't downshift into 2nd or first unless I am stopped, or almost stopped. My has only about 750miles on it, and it's actually a little over full. Thanks for the help, and anymore advice would be appreciated.

[ZukiFred]

Could also be that you are canging gears to easily, It should be done fast and hard.

[The CyberPoet]

My has only about 750miles on it, and it's actually a little over full. Thanks for the help, and anymore advice would be appreciated.

Your what only has 750 miles on it -- your bike, your chain, your what?

Could also be that you are canging gears to easily, It should be done fast and hard.

Great point, Fred. Unlike car transmissions which reward slower shifting (allowing planetary gears to spin up), the transmission on virtually every motorcycle ever built (including yours) is a sequential-shift system with no planetary gears. What that means is that you need to make all your shifts very firm and fast, with a single hard snap of your foot. The system punishes those who don't shift with a single hard, fast snap, by causing gears to dance off each other (which can cause secondary damages to the gear teeth and potentially to the shift-forks as well).

The correct way to shift up on your bike:
Clutch in, release the throttle (RPM's now dropping -- they need to drop about 1k before the next steps), slam the foot shifter into the next gear up, add a bit of throttle and release the clutch. Failing to release the throttle & let the RPM's drop before your foot starts moving will make the gears have a very difficult time meshing properly. Once you've got the motions in the right order, you learn to do it faster and faster until it finally becomes second nature as the process is turned into muscle memory movements.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Teh_K]

...(RPM's now dropping -- they need to drop about 1k before the next steps)...

Is that for all gears or just 1st -> 2nd? That just seems like a lot of time waiting for revs to fall (with respect to the overall time it takes to shift).

For example, I normally cruise around 5K-rpm - if I get the urge to speed up, I bring on the throttle up to about 7-8K, clutch-in, and while the revs fall, I up-shift. This means that by the time I'm letting the clutch out, the revs are only down to 4K, and as I release the clutch, I bring back the throttle to settle in my cruise speed of 5K. But, this is only for up-shifting out of 3rd and higher.

[The CyberPoet]

Is that for all gears or just 1st -> 2nd? That just seems like a lot of time waiting for revs to fall (with respect to the overall time it takes to shift).

That's generally true for any upshift on the Kats (other types of bikes may have other gear spacing which requires more or less RPM loss during an upshift). The amount of time it takes the engine to drop 1K RPM without a load on it (i.e. - clutch in, throttle off) is probably a bit under a third of a second, if your oil is already all the way up to operating temp. So, while it may sound like a lot if you stop & think about each step individually, it really isn't in reality once muscle-memory sets in.

And althought the perfect shift would have the shifter clicking up into the next gear and then the clutch releasing just as you hit that perfect RPM, the important thing is that there isn't a bunch of positive loading on the transmission from the engine when you actually shift (i.e. - when the gears physically move to engage the next gear up). The clutch can take a 1k difference as slippage (although it's not good for long clutch life), but the tranny gears don't like to take being slammed together at radically different RPM's (kind of like a hammer bashing gear teeth). This is why virtually every book, school and instructor tells you to match your RPM's to your shifts.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

[Uloset]

your bike just out for a new season? I usually have some tanny issues on my 1st ride of the year. I'm guessing because the oil has not been heated up for a long time and is very thick but it usually goes away after my 1st ride, that is long enough to heat every thing up pretty well. However, I have only had it give me a problem once or twice at high rpm's it usually give me a fight when I'm trying to get into 1st right after its been sitting for a long while. Sometimes I can only get it into 1st if I push down on the shifter and let the clutch out ever so slightly so it just hardly catches.

[Teh_K]

That's generally true for any upshift on the Kats (other types of bikes may have other gear spacing which requires more or less RPM loss during an upshift). The amount of time it takes the engine to drop 1K RPM without a load on it (i.e. - clutch in, throttle off) is probably a bit under a third of a second, if your oil is already all the way up to operating temp. So, while it may sound like a lot if you stop & think about each step individually, it really isn't in reality once muscle-memory sets in.

And althought the perfect shift would have the shifter clicking up into the next gear and then the clutch releasing just as you hit that perfect RPM, the important thing is that there isn't a bunch of positive loading on the transmission from the engine when you actually shift (i.e. - when the gears physically move to engage the next gear up). The clutch can take a 1k difference as slippage (although it's not good for long clutch life), but the tranny gears don't like to take being slammed together at radically different RPM's (kind of like a hammer bashing gear teeth). This is why virtually every book, school and instructor tells you to match your RPM's to your shifts.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

D'oh!

I thought you said to let your revs drop to 1K-rpm when shifting in the earlier post. Sorry, read it too fast...

[BlackburnD]

My has only about 750miles on it, and it's actually a little over full. Thanks for the help, and anymore advice would be appreciated.

Your what only has 750 miles on it -- your bike, your chain, your what?

Could also be that you are canging gears to easily, It should be done fast and hard.

Great point, Fred. Unlike car transmissions which reward slower shifting (allowing planetary gears to spin up), the transmission on virtually every motorcycle ever built (including yours) is a sequential-shift system with no planetary gears. What that means is that you need to make all your shifts very firm and fast, with a single hard snap of your foot. The system punishes those who don't shift with a single hard, fast snap, by causing gears to dance off each other (which can cause secondary damages to the gear teeth and potentially to the shift-forks as well).

The correct way to shift up on your bike:
Clutch in, release the throttle (RPM's now dropping -- they need to drop about 1k before the next steps), slam the foot shifter into the next gear up, add a bit of throttle and release the clutch. Failing to release the throttle & let the RPM's drop before your foot starts moving will make the gears have a very difficult time meshing properly. Once you've got the motions in the right order, you learn to do it faster and faster until it finally becomes second nature as the process is turned into muscle memory movements.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

My oil... Sorry bout that.. It may be me. It happens WAY more when I am riding 2up with the woman. I think I try to be so gentle with her on the back that maybe I'm taking it to easy on the bike... I rode last night for about 3 hours and it only happened like twice. So maybe I just suck. Thanks guys