No spark needs some help!

[Patthehat033]

Hey,

So I have a 1989 Suzuki GSX600F motor I am putting on a go kart, and I am currently working on getting spark. The motor did not come with carbs or a cdi or a full wiring harness.

I just bought a wiring harness and CDI, and am trying to get spark. Unfortunately I failed to do so. Maybe you guys can help me figure out the problem!!

Okay so I hooked up the CDI to the signal generator, and hooked up the cdi orange/white and white wire to a coil to test the spark. I grounded the coil to the breather tube assembly holder at the top of the engine. To start the motor I just have the ground from the frame going to the battery, and the +ve of the battery going to the starter.

Is the black/white wiring coming out of the CDI, supposed to be grounded somewhere? If so, I have not done that, would that cause this problem?

[05RedKat600]

You will also need to connect the wires for the clutch switch, and the kill switch. I'm not sure what color they are, but if you head to the electrical and wiring section there is a diagram in there.

[Patthehat033]

Okay, but I thought that the clutch switch would be disabled if I didn't hook it up, since the connection circuit would be opened (acting as if the clutch was engaged). Also I am not a hundred percent sure how the kill switches work on these type of engines with CDI's but, since i don't have the orange wire grounded to anything, wouldn't that allow the coil to produce spark.

[05RedKat600]

Okay, but I thought that the clutch switch would be disabled if I didn't hook it up, since the connection circuit would be opened (acting as if the clutch was engaged). Also I am not a hundred percent sure how the kill switches work on these type of engines with CDI's but, since i don't have the orange wire grounded to anything, wouldn't that allow the coil to produce spark.

The circuit for the ignition connects through the clutch switch. Those wires have to be connected, otherwise no spark. Again, this really should be in the wiring section, and here is link to the diagram. There are quite a few wires that will need to be connected. From your first post, it also sounds like you are missing the ignitor box, AKA black box. Unless that is the CDI you refer to? Kats don't really have CDI, they use a signal generator.

http://katriders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=119672

EDIT: Gah, clutch switch is for the starter. IIRC, the orange/white wire should be the 12VDC wire, and the other a signal wire.

[Patthehat033]

Hey thanks for the wiring diagram! And yes when I say the CDI I am referring to the Ignitor box, how does the ignitor box work? Is there a way to bypass the clutch switch. I am guessing if it is part of the circuit, it is a normally on switch? If I cut the wire from the clutch switch and wired it straight up to the +ve side of the battery would this bypass the switch. Or how can I bypass this. I do not have the piece that pushes in the clutch pin yet, so I can not activate the clutch. I am starting it in neutral.

Also how does the kill switch work on an engine like this?

[05RedKat600]

Hey thanks for the wiring diagram! And yes when I say the CDI I am referring to the Ignitor box, how does the ignitor box work? Is there a way to bypass the clutch switch. I am guessing if it is part of the circuit, it is a normally on switch? If I cut the wire from the clutch switch and wired it straight up to the +ve side of the battery would this bypass the switch. Or how can I bypass this. I do not have the piece that pushes in the clutch pin yet, so I can not activate the clutch. I am starting it in neutral.

Also how does the kill switch work on an engine like this?

Disregard the clutch switch, you bypassed it already and it doesn't affect the ignition ignition anyway. it's starter only. Gonna have to review this diagram now as it appears I need a refresher.

[Patthehat033]

Great! haha I was getting confused myself. So then if I have the clutch switch bypassed, then how does the kill switch I need to wire up work? And do I need to ground that black/white wire from the ignitor box?

Gah, clutch switch is for the starter. IIRC, the orange/white wire should be the 12VDC wire, and the other a signal wire.

Yes I noticed this wire is attached to the kill switch. Is the kill switch supposed to be 12V's powered? Or is it on a switch and only activated when you need to ground out the coil?

Also I am a bit confused, is the Ignitor box battery powered, and not stator powered? If so what wires are coming from the battery and where is the current going from there?

[Kreylyn]

The ICM (Ignition Controle Module) is a transitored system. The ICM does not send a "pulse" or signal out per say. Instead, it cuts power to the secondary circuit of the coil it wants to creat a spark at the plugs.

The bike works on a wasted spark concept. When a coil fires, it does so for both plugs. The coil has 2 internal circuits. A primary and secondary. When both circuits are powered, a magnetic field is created. When one of those circuits is suddently dropped, the magnetic field collapses and generates the spark at both of the plugs.

The orange/white stripe wires are the constant power source wires and one each connect to the 2 coils. They should be tested and verified you have a minimal of 10.5v from them. Lower than that will cause weak/no spark issues from the coils.

The black or white wires coming from the CDI are the "signal" lines. When the ICM wants to fire a spark from a coil, it drops power suddently for the appropriate wire (black or white). I believe if I remember correctly, the White wire was left coil so ... cylinders 1 and 4, the black was right wire, so cylinders 2 and 3.

The clutch saftey switch prevents the starter from engaging, but will not kill the motor or prevent it from starting. It's just related to the stater egaging. You can connect the clutch switch wires together on the harness and bypass this switch entirely. The connectors are even matched up to do so with no mods to the harness.

The kickstand saftey switch is connected to the ignition system. It will kill the engine just the same as the kill switch. It works along with the neutral sensor puck, and both connect to the sidestand relay. You must make sure the kickstand switch is engaged (think on) if the neutral puck is not grounded in the neutral position. Or, the neutral puck is properly aligned and connected to creat a ground in neutral (also think on) if the kickstand relay is not "on" before the relay will allow for the engine to run. To clarify, the kickstand is on when it's in the fully up position. The neutral sensor is "on" when it's in neutral. At least one of those have to be "on" for the bike to run.

You also will need to make sure that both ground wires are properly grounded. There is a primary and secondary ground wire at the battery.

Krey

[Patthehat033]

If I cut into the orange/white wires combine them, and then send them both to the +ve of my battery with a on/off toggle switch (not a push button but one that stays either on or off, depending on the position of the switch lever), that will power the coils plus give me a kill switch.

And then I ground the black/white wire of the Ignitor box that is on the same connector as the ignition coil wires. Will I need to do anything other than that? The clutch switch and the neutral switch are both not hooked up, so I guess they are disengaged if that is how they are supposed to be?

I see the kickstand switch on the diagram, but can't I bypass that by making the current that goes to the coils from the kill switch circuit I mentioned above?

I also I forgot to mention the wiring harness I got did not come with a key switch, so there is nothing hooked up as a start/stop engine switch from what I can see.

[Kreylyn]

If I cut into the orange/white wires combine them, and then send them both to the +ve of my battery with a on/off toggle switch (not a push button but one that stays either on or off, depending on the position of the switch lever), that will power the coils plus give me a kill switch.

And then I ground the black/white wire of the Ignitor box that is on the same connector as the ignition coil wires. Will I need to do anything other than that? The clutch switch and the neutral switch are both not hooked up, so I guess they are disengaged if that is how they are supposed to be?

I see the kickstand switch on the diagram, but can't I bypass that by making the current that goes to the coils from the kill switch circuit I mentioned above?

I also I forgot to mention the wiring harness I got did not come with a key switch, so there is nothing hooked up as a start/stop engine switch from what I can see.

Me thinks you might want to revisit that wiring diagram.

If you do/have done what you just stated, then your never going to get that motor running.

Krey

[Patthehat033]

Sorry I put CDI instead of Ignitor in the diagram!

Hahaha I'm sorry there are just so many wires on the diagram, here is what I have sketched up. I am sure there is a problem in this diagram, but please let me know why it won't run this way. Keep in mind there is no alternator wiring in this diagram I will add that later this is strictly for ignition purposes. I have 7 wires coming out of the connector on the ignitor box that does not have the ignition wires coming out of it. How many of those do I need to short out/bypass. I thought the only one of the box would like at is the neutral safety switch, which I think I can just not hook up or ground it out depending on if it is a switch that is "on" when the bike is in neutral or not.

EDIT: looking at a different wiring diagram it looks as the only wires of the 7 that it needs to run is the signal generator wires, and then it can be hooked up to a tach if I need to eventually, but thats about it.


By the way thanks for all the help!

[Kreylyn]

well, the first major thing is that the orange/white wire is power OUT from the CDI... not power in.

Krey

[Patthehat033]

The orange/white stripe wires are the constant power source wires and one each connect to the 2 coils. They should be tested and verified you have a minimal of 10.5v from them. Lower than that will cause weak/no spark issues from the coils.

Haha I'm guessing this did not mean power from the battery. Where would the 12V come from? Is there a wire that the battery hooks to on the CDI?

Or is that generated from the signal generator?

[Kreylyn]

Power routes from the battery to the ignition switch, then back down the harness to the CDI. From the CDI it then routes to the coils on the orange/white stripe wires. Black/yellow stripe wire and the white wire are the "signal" wires. If I remember correctly it will be a solid orange or red wire that is power in. No stripe.

If you have a harness and CDI I would start at the positive connection with the OEM harness setup and test with a volt meter as you go to trace the power.

Krey

[Patthehat033]

Very nice there is a solid red wire, that I would suppose is the power in wire for the CDI, it is on the second connector with the 7 wires on it. The other ones I think go to the Clutch switch, Neutral switch (3 wires) and then there is a black wire with a red stripe which I am not sure about that, but I am positive that is probably not a power wire, (1 wire) then the signal generator (2 wires) and then that one red wire which has to be power in.

But if I use the stock harness and hook it up to my battery, won't there be no power going to the CDI until I bypass all those switches?